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Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by altacc on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @05:14AM (#39915073)
I have wondered what the insurance structure for this is and how liable the vessel's owners and insurers are for damage to public infrastructure.

Marine insurance is one of the oldest types of insurance and antique in some respects, with large vessels covered by several underwriting firms. So potentially this is a massive financial hit for multiple companies if there is not a limit on liability.

Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by proteal on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @05:38AM (#39915236)
As a former property insurance broker whose clients had big claims ($100Mish) and worked around people who handled the real big claims ($1B+), I can't really tell you with any specificity of how this will play out. All I know is that it will be a huge mess, and the lawyers will argue in court for several years.

Ultimately, someone will have to pay to rebuild the bridge. In the event of really big claims, it almost always end up being whoever has the deepest pockets. The process of discovery will list out who all the owners are and how much their policies cover this claim (whether intentionally or not!).

As counterintuitive as this may sound, the insurance and reinsurance companies are actually pretty well equipped to handle this type of event. The underwriter(s) on the other side of policy will have to report the claim to their boss and the report will show they followed company guidelines. The boss can only shrug her shoulders and say "welp, can't be too mad because this is the business we are in." No one is particularly thrilled about paying the claim, but these situations are exactly why insurance was created. (For context, the "small" claims of $1M -> $10M hurt the most because they are the ones that throw off underwriter's models the most and cause the most unprofitability)

Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by AdamN on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @06:52AM (#39915759)
My understanding is that the insurers like these situations - it makes it obvious how important good insurance is and sales go up. The individual impact seems large to the layperson but is within the models of the insurance and reinsurance companies over time.
Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by Y_Y on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @07:14AM (#39915929)
There is an analogous situation in (e.g. sports) betting. Every now and then someone places a really long bet on something like Leicester winning the Premiership and then gets a collosal payout. Inevitably there's some naive speculation that the betting shop will be very unhappy with this. In reality theae u likely events happen relatively infrequently (often disproportionately to even their long odds) and the publicity from such an unlikely win more than makes up for the payout.
Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by sokoloff on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @08:07AM (#39916368)
Chris Moneymaker* winning the 2003 World Series of Poker main event after winning his entry in an $86 online qualifying tournament (rather than paying the entry fee from his own pocket) was the biggest thing that could have happened for poker.

* - Yes, that's really his name: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Moneymaker

Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by Horffupolde on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @08:12AM (#39916420)
It’s not random. It’s called the Crentist effect or nominative determinism.
Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by dmurray on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @07:56AM (#39916272)
The odds did tighten up after Leicester won the Premier League though. You couldn't get 5000-1 on say Watford winning in 2016-17, the best odds IIRC were more like 500-1.

It seemed like bookies really did adjust their expectations or their risk appetite for long-tail events in this market. And they were probably correct to do so.

Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by flakeoil on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @08:06AM (#39916361)
Are those two events/teams comparable so that one could expect the same type of odds?

I'm not much into betting, but will not the odds change also based on how people are betting. So if many people started to bet on the unexpected result, due to for example that the unexpected Leicester team won last time, wouldn't odds tighten up automatically?

Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by dmurray on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @08:41AM (#39916688)
> Are those two events/teams comparable so that one could expect the same type of odds?

Yes IMO. It might be more rigorous to say: before 2016 there were always a handful of teams priced at 5000-1, after 2016 there were not. The league didn't objectively get more competitive.

> So if many people started to bet on the unexpected result, due to for example that the unexpected Leicester team won last time, wouldn't odds tighten up automatically

Definitely possible, and would explain the effect regardless of whether the punters were smart money Nicholas Taleb types who spotted that black swans were systematically underpriced, or gamblers dreaming of another Leicester payday.

Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by octodog on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @08:08AM (#39916374)
Or, cynically, their original odds were right but they have taken the opportunity to reduce payouts because punters now consider that event more likely and thus would accept less.
Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by TheCoelacanth on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @03:48PM (#39922171)
It's less of an indication of bookies' predictions and more of an indicator of bettors' predictions.

A bookie isn't trying to gamble on the outcome; they're trying to get the bets to all balance out so that no matter what the outcome they take in enough money from the losers to pay the winners with some profit leftover.

As more people bet on a specific outcome, they will lower the odds to make sure that the pool of money taken in is still big enough to pay out if that outcome happens.

Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by randall on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @07:44AM (#39916172)
So big payouts become an organic marketing expense. Clever!
Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by bluelightning2k on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @07:46AM (#39916182)
Problem with this: an individual betting shop pays out, the sales lift is shared among the entire industry.

Concentrated downside, distributed upside. I doubt the individual bookie is happy.

Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by gtirloni on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @07:53AM (#39916253)
I'm not familiar with betting in general but is there even a bookie this days? Or is that a company (one of the thousands flooding social media with ads lately)?

It seems, like in other industries, being large helps to weather out such rare events.

Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by htrp on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @08:58AM (#39916843)
Most "individual betting shops" are a sales agent where the actual "book" is run through bet365/paddypower (at least the ones aboveboard in the UK).
Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by Majromax on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @10:12AM (#39917764)
Proper betting shops are market makers, ideally balancing their books such that they profit by the house spread regardless of outcomes. A bookie that takes on a substantial net position is accidentally gambling with their own money.
Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by User23 on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @08:12AM (#39916419)
Ideally the bookie is acting as a broker and not directly making a market. Theoretically if they’re accepting bets for Leicester winning the Premiership at 5000-1, they’re also accepting bets that amount to that not happening at offsetting odds.
Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by whartung on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @09:04AM (#39916912)
The corollary is the scenes from the movie “The Grifters” where one aspect of Angelica Huston’s character is she goes to tracks to put large bets on long shots to lower the impact on the mobs illegal bookmaking system, in case the horse actually wins.

It’s not mentioned in the movie. I have to guess that they only do that if there is a large bet pending, rather doing it to all the long shot horses.

Some gambler dropping a 10k bet, and have her put $1k on the horse is enough to really rock the odds. Perhaps, mob accounting is not my specialty. And, of course, it’s just a movie.

Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by tgsovlerkhgsel on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @07:34AM (#39916082)
Is it? The best "insurance" against this seems to be a rat's nest of sufficiently small LLCs which then conveniently go bankrupt when something big happens (losing only the assets in that LLC at that time). Imagine a shipping company where each ship is its own LLC. If the ship sinks, well too bad, the only meaningful asset that LLC had was the ship, oops.

I assume ships are required by law to have insurance before being allowed to go in certain places, to make sure damage they cause is covered. But that would make it hard to sell "better" insurance than the legal minimum when it comes to catastrophic claims.

Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by AdamN on Friday April 05, 2024 @08:08AM (#39941382)
That's why insurance is heavily regulated and there are requirements on capital available for claims in order to operate in the jurisdiction. And of course savvy clients (like the ones managing $100MM container ships) will do due diligence on this as well.
Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by nradov on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @09:03AM (#39916907)
Pretty much every large merchant ship already has insurance. The market is saturated and there's no way for sales to go up. Marine insurers might use this incident to justify increasing premiums, though.
Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by proteal on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @12:50PM (#39919771)
I would say yes, but realistically all large enough companies purchase adequate insurance for known categories like property and casualty. So this particular claim probably isn't making waves, but there have been claims in the past. For example, when that dude shot up the AMC theater during the Dark Knight, literally every other theater chain bought as much terrorism insurance as the market would sell them. Ironically, because the risk was elevated after the event, price went way up and coverage offered went way down because underwriters saw it as a losing bet.
Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by algo_trader on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @07:51AM (#39916234)
self reminder
Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by cientifico on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @06:28AM (#39915592)
I can tell you how is going to play out. The people with less money for lawyers will be held liable. Normally the captain.
Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by rob74 on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @07:51AM (#39916226)
Oh, I thought you meant the taxpayers (ok, they won't be held liable, but are still the most likely to pay for it in the end)
Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by gruez on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @08:11AM (#39916407)
Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by gtirloni on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @07:56AM (#39916273)
The captain can be fired, sure. Pay anything? Extremely unlikely. The liability for accidents stops at the company, unless there was a clear intent from the captain to cause the disaster but now we're in criminal court.
Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by rightbyte on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @06:58AM (#39915815)
There was a pilot onboard, right?

If I remember correctly they made the ship steer of course quite sharply. If the pilot dropped anchor and made the ship do that they might be in error.

Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by nradov on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @09:20AM (#39917092)
Legally speaking, the pilot is only present in an advisory capacity. The master is ultimately responsible for safe navigation.

As for the anchor, you seem to misunderstand the basics of ship handling.

https://youtu.be/qZbUXewlQDk?si=GBPMFyHPZGAF1v5z

Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by rightbyte on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @03:21PM (#39921833)
Dropping anchor could very well be a thing you do.

To me it seems like the boat steers of course after regaining power. Am I imagining things? I guess it could happen by chance too, as drift takes on?

Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by nradov on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @11:03PM (#39926126)
You're imagining things. Did you watch the video?
Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by leereeves on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @07:17AM (#39915959)
Holding the captain liable would be like trying to get a blood transfusion for an elephant from a mosquito.
Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by Scoundreller on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @12:31PM (#39919511)
They could be one of many parties considered liable. Lawyers will justify spending $20k in legal work on themselves for an extra $100ks in recoveries, even if that’s a part of $billions.

Quite possible the captain has their own liability insurance. Dunno how the professionalization works at sea.

Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by Scoundreller on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @12:35PM (#39919566)
The people harmed with less money for lawyers probably won’t get anything, I can see that happening.

Automakers might get a payout for the shipping delays, but people waiting longer for their new car won’t see any of it.

The people’s commutes that will be X minutes longer for the next while will have to just suck it up.

Same for anyone paying a few percent more for goods that have to be imported through other ports.

Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by helsinkiandrew on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @10:46AM (#39918192)
I read that Barclays estimated total insurance claims would be $2-3B ($1-1.5B for bridge and rest for wrongful death claims and loss of business), with most of that falling on the Lloyds of London market. FYI they received over $65B in premiums last year (and made a profit of $10B)
Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by clem on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @05:24AM (#39915124)
It's certainly been a massive financial hit to the greater Baltimore area, so that sounds appropriate. Insurance companies need to account for large shocks -- it's the whole reason their industry exists.
Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by unyttigfjelltol on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @06:47AM (#39915730)
This isn't an insurance lawsuit. Interestingly, it's also not exclusively a ship owner petition. The petition also includes the ship manager.

Another poster linked to a USC section protecting the ship owner on the basis of them not knowing anything that caused the loss. So that is what it is.

Ok, but why would a ship manager also be able to benefit from such a limitation ? The USC section doesn't say anything about the manager, and unlike the owner, the manager was by definition an active participant in the casualty.

Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by _heimdall on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @07:59AM (#39916306)
Presumably the ship manager, and everyone else onboard, should only be liable if they did something wrong. If the vessel lost power and they followed all standard procedures, acting responsibly and simply couldn't avoid the collision, they did their jobs and shouldn't be financially or legally liable.
Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by shakahshakah on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @10:57AM (#39918316)
While I'm sure they'd love to "win" their petition outright, a major benefit of filing the partition is to force all future legal action through that single court system.
Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by baq on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @05:19AM (#39915103)
It's worse (as in, more complex; better for the public, I guess) in that damages will be so big reinsurers are going to take a huge hit; they're probably not used to that.
Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by mschuster91 on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @06:22AM (#39915560)
> damages will be so big reinsurers are going to take a huge hit; they're probably not used to that.

Nah, the re-insurances actually are used to big hits. Munich Re, one of the biggest in the world if not the biggest, pays out billions of dollars a year from nature disasters [1].

[1] https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/200297/umfrag...

Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by Elkekec on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @05:51AM (#39915332)
The exposure of insurance and reinsurance depends on the amount the ship was insured for (and there is a limit to that).
Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by jcarrano on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @05:31AM (#39915174)
There are insurance companies that insure insurers. At each lever there are solvency requirements.
Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by nashashmi on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @05:34AM (#39915203)
Right. Base damage is covered by the first line insurer. The excess damage is covered by the backend insurer.

Business is about managing loss. Nothing more. No further emotional support required.

Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by proteal on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @06:14AM (#39915502)
What you are describing is true, but there is a lot of nuance to how reinsurance plays out in large insurance policy towers. If you build a stack of insurance policies that work together to create a large single policy limit, you typically won't see reinsurance directly in that tower. If "Westchester Insurance Company" is anywhere on that tower as a carrier (whether first line, known more commonly as a primary insurer, or above that as an excess carrier), they will cut your check in the event of a claim. The money will come from their bank account, as will all the other affected carriers in claim. They are what you would consider a traditional insurance company.

With that being said, Westchester may elect to purchase reinsurance to further reduce their risk. If they know the volatility of a policy is high or want to limit their potential losses, Westchester can buy a reinsurance policy to cover the long tail of their written policy. So if Westchester gets unlucky and has to pay into that long tail (ie an unforeseen mega catastrophe occurs and they are on the hook), they will then submit a claim to their reinsurance carrier who reimburses them on the backend. As a recipient of that policy payout, you will only ever see Westchester's names on the checks. Also, Westchester's parent company, Chubb, has a reinsurance treaty which basically helps protect them from any crazy one time loss. The reinsurance/retrocession market is fascinating! It truly is insurance policies all the way down.

Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by lotsofpulp on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @07:48AM (#39916203)
> It truly is insurance policies all the way down.

The way it has always played out in my lifetime, it is just a few levels of insurance, and then future taxpayers. See Katrina, Sandy, 2008 financial crisis, 2020 pandemic, etc.

Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by nashashmi on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @09:53AM (#39917498)
The way you see the cost is when you go to buy anything new, the price of the item goes up because the background insurance is a little bit higher.

If the insurance is too high, businesses shut, market price goes up and economy slows down, leading the govt to print more money for stimulus which in turn devalues the previous losses, with justified inflation.

Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by nashashmi on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @09:49AM (#39917455)
Thank you for explaining it in so much more detail than I had the patience for.

Who is the ultimate insurer without any insurance backing? I’m guessing every topic of loss has a different insurance company. Massive fire damages (electric company wild fire) is by one firm. Massive equipment destruction (crane collapse) is by another firm. But there has to be an ultimate uninsured bag holder. (I remember Warren Buffet once saying he will be allocating $10 billion for insurance, I guess in a savings account just in case anyone needs it while he is offering insurance plans on it .)

Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by proteal on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @12:45PM (#39919702)
You know, it's funny you mention Warren Buffet. I asked the Berkshire Hathaway guys the same thing when I first started as a broker! Turns out they can't go asking Mr. Buffet for money in case they run out. He expects them to run a tight business and hold the proper amount of money on hand to pay out any potential future claims. The natural followup was me asking if the underwriter had ever met the man himself. The closest he ever got was an unrelated picture at the shareholder conference in Omaha where Buffet was off in the background autographing something. Back on topic, you may be wondering how does an insurance company know how much cash reserves to have? The answer is to hire a bunch of wicked smart actuaries who go to school for 8 years that can calculate all this stuff for you. They tend to do a very good job and are paid handsomely for their efforts. As a fun perspective, let's take a look at AIG's balance sheet [1] (A balance sheet is like a database summary of all the stuff the company owns and to whom they owe money). I pick AIG because they only do insurance so it's easier to tease out the insights we want from the data as BHS is a subsidiary of BH and gets mixed in with other companies. AIG's market cap right now is $53B, but they've got $540B of stuff they own! That's 10x their market cap. Most of that will be paid out in claims (hence the balance sheet showing liabilities, aka what they owe), but what's leftover is the residual value of the company. It's a neat finance trick that you can buy $540B of assets for only $53B by buying AIG outright. Regulators know this trick so don't think you and your friends can pull a fast one. It just goes to show how capitalized insurance companies are. If you really want to dig deeper, there are many rating agencies (AM Best or S&P being the most popular) that assess the ability of insurance companies to pay claims. Brokers don't advise clients to buy insurance rated worse than A.

Regarding ultimate insurers, you're spot on that the answer is a big ol' "it depends." People buy insurance for three reasons, listed in order of how important I think they are. First is balance sheet protection (I worked hard for my stuff, I can't afford to lose it). Second is for contractual obligations (Nobody will do business with me if I don't promise to make them whole if things go wrong). Last is because the government says you have to. When you think of a claim happening where there is no insurance available, run through that checklist to see what what could potentially happen. Since you listed a few concrete examples, I'll go through them and opine how things may play out (remember we're in imaginary land and without policies I can't really say anything for certain).

Fire damages - I think of the Camp fire. In 2018 California was set on fire because of some transmission lines caused a spark. This is a big claim caused by an individual entity, so the normal rules don't necessarily apply here. But in general, the way it works is if my house caught fire because of this Camp fire, my insurance policy on my house WILL cover the claim. Whoever writes my policy will cut me a check and replace my home (subject to policy terms). What will then happen is my insurance company will the subrogate the claim to the entity that caused it. Meaning that they will knock on the electric utility's door and ask for reimbursement (this is essentially subrogation). When the utility goes bankrupt, they're saying we can't pay, so ultimately your insurance carrier pays out of pocket with no reimbursement. The head property underwriter of Everest insurance spoke to us about the fire claims and said they really hurt his book. If I recall, they paid like a billion in fire claims in 2018, but budgeted nowhere near enough. Those well paid actuaries couldn't predict a fire would raze California! Luckily they budget a rainy day fund, so the company was ok. Fire insurance prices did go up significantly the following year. This is because they didn't realize just how on the hook they could be for fire claims. The whole insurance market systematically underpriced fire insurance in fire prone areas.

Crane collapse is another good example. My old client had a particularly nasty crane collapse that is ongoing, so I will not share any details around any crane collapses, hypothetical or not. However, there is an analogous claim that I did not work on that I can use as an example: the MGM shooting in Vegas (2017) [2]. Basically, the concert venue didn't have enough insurance to foot the bill. In the process of discovery, the lawyers saw that MGM Casinos (where the shooter perched) had an extensive casualty insurance tower. MGM's insurance ended up having to pay out the claim. They used up the full limits of every policy they bought that year (and not a penny more). I think because they weren't negligent, the lawyers didn't seek damages beyond their policy limits. When there is a bad claim, lawyers will always find whoever has the deepest pockets and make them pay. If you don't have enough insurance, courts will force you to pay out of pocket. If you don't have enough money out of pocket, the wronged party will have to eat the loss. This is why point #2 is an important reason for buying insurance.

Also- if your question regarding crane collapses is more geared towards someone losing a lot of value quickly, that is easy. My old boss insured a factory in tornado alley. Couple hundred million dollar factory was insured pretty cheap because tornadoes don't cause much damage and are considered low risk. A few weeks after the plant was finished, a tornado came through and ripped the building clean in half. Insurance company paid the near total loss, no questions asked. Remember, they're in the business of insuring against these freak accidents. They are comfortable with taking a lopsided deal. They earn plenty of premiums each year on factories that aren't violently introduced to tornadoes.

I had a wealthy client who purposely didn't buy insurance on his buildings. He'd buy the first $75M or whatever of insurance and would guarantee the rest out of pocket (did I mention he was wealthy?). This is hard to do because of points #2 and #3, but it can be done. In the biz, we call this "self-insurance" and while it may sound like I'm being tongue-in-cheek, it is a very sophisticated risk management strategy that can accomplish a client's risk transfer needs. Typically companies self insure the small claims (via a deductible), not the top end of claims.

I guess to directly answer the lead question, the ultimate insurer without any insurance backing is you, the owner. It's your stuff after all. If your stuff is important to other people (ie the public, or other companies) other stakeholders are gonna make you have insurance, otherwise you won't be allowed to control those resources. That's why the boat, the bridge, and the port all had good insurance. The system was working as intended.

Thank you for your great questions! I've got a few other responses in the thread that detail other insurance questions that you may find interesting.

[1] https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/AIG/balance-sheet/

[2] It's a little fucked up that I have to put the year so we know which one I'm talking about. At least I didn't need to clarify the month...

Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by nashashmi on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @02:15PM (#39920951)
That was an entertaining read. Thanks.
Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by LgWoodenBadger on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @08:41AM (#39916685)
I watched this video last night and found it enlightening. He covers the multiple levels of ownership of the vessel, liabilities, insurance, insurance clubs, pooled insurance, and reinsurance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Wim-_Q_59o

From "What is Going on With Shipping?"

Re:Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore br... by anonu on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @08:50AM (#39916775)
https://www.igpandi.org/reinsurance/

Look at the graphic at the bottom of that link. Basically, there are multiple levels of insurance in the P&I space (property and indemnity insurance common in marine insurance). Insurance companies purchase their own insurance, aka reinsurance. The levels of reinsurance can be multiple layers deep. Insurance companies form clubs to spread out the risk to multiple entities.

This stuff will be tied up in claims and courts for years to come.