News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The Francis Scott Key Bridge in Baltimore, Maryland Has C... by xoa on Tuesday March 26, 2024 @08:50AM (#39827203)
Just to put some numbers on this:

The MV Dali (IMO#9697428) is a little over 95000 GT, or ballpark-ish probably around 114000 tons loaded (and it seems to have been loaded, which would make sense on departure). If it was going even 5kn (2.6 m/s) that'd be about 300 million newton-seconds, or about 3.3 times the momentum of a large jumbo jet like a 747 shortly at cruising speed (around 560 mph). It'd still have the same momentum as said jet if it was going just 1.5kn. The ship of course is enormously more stoutly built and the force is going to be transmitted far more directly into whatever it hits vs into explosions driving mass elsewhere.

I've read that both on water and in space for that matter enormously massive objects moving very slowly messes with human perception and "common sense", it "feels like" something moving along smoothly and slowly should be stoppable or come to a stop. Enormous momentum and forces can be terrifying things.

Re:The Francis Scott Key Bridge in Baltimore, Maryland Has C... by litenboll on Tuesday March 26, 2024 @09:40AM (#39827695)
I had a summer job once, filling trains with sugar. They weighed about 15kkg per wagon (usually 5-10 wagons per train IIRC).

One time the pulling cart broke down and we had to switch it for another, but when we took it off the rails we forgot about the "shoe" that is supposed to go between the rail and one of the wheels so it can't move downhill (it was like 1degree of slope so barely recognizable as a slope).

It started moving extremely slowly, and all of us except one tried to hold back the force of the train, which of course was imossible and dangerous. The one who did not try to push it very quickly found the "shoe" and put in place. Initially it did not seem to help at all, the train just continued moving at the same pace, tearing up asphalt with the shoe. It finally came to a stop after about 3-5m(?) which takes a fair bit of time with such low speed, and felt like forever given the situation.

The train tracks headed out into an open road, so it could have been so much worse if it were not for the only person thinking clearly in the situation (he was one of the more experienced in our group).

Re:The Francis Scott Key Bridge in Baltimore, Maryland Has C... by master_crab on Tuesday March 26, 2024 @09:55AM (#39827860)
Also want to highlight this for another reason. At slow speeds rail and boats suffer from far less “moving” friction than road vehicles. So once off there is very little slowing them down vs cars and trucks that suffer from high rolling friction.
Re:The Francis Scott Key Bridge in Baltimore, Maryland Has C... by theluketaylor on Tuesday March 26, 2024 @10:41AM (#39828529)
Grady Hillhouse of Practical Engineering recently did a great demo of this. He was able to pull his car in neutral and an empty train car on rails with roughly the same force.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGhBHrr5CYQ

Re:The Francis Scott Key Bridge in Baltimore, Maryland Has C... by kamaal on Tuesday March 26, 2024 @12:02PM (#39829424)
One wonders how braking works on a train.
Re:The Francis Scott Key Bridge in Baltimore, Maryland Has C... by master_crab on Tuesday March 26, 2024 @12:07PM (#39829482)
Mostly the same as it would work on a car with a brake shoe applied to the steel wheel.

The only major difference is that they often use a safety air brake system shared across an entire consist (train) that requires “charged” pressure (above atmosphere) to disengage the brake (although I think they have moved to an electronic system that now monitors air pressure in each car individually).

Re:The Francis Scott Key Bridge in Baltimore, Maryland Has C... by singleshot_ on Tuesday March 26, 2024 @01:20PM (#39830400)
Semi trucks have air brakes that function very similarly. One air source for all brakes, pressure releases, brakes lock on failure.
Re:The Francis Scott Key Bridge in Baltimore, Maryland Has C... by phyzome on Tuesday March 26, 2024 @03:51PM (#39832101)
I think it's actually in an earlier video, and he wasn't able to actually pull the train car due to track irregularity -- but according to calculations he should have been able to if there was a safe way to give it a bit of a nudge.
Re:The Francis Scott Key Bridge in Baltimore, Maryland Has C... by theluketaylor on Tuesday March 26, 2024 @04:51PM (#39832697)
You're absolutely right; I posted the wrong link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfA0ftgWI7U

Re:The Francis Scott Key Bridge in Baltimore, Maryland Has C... by mckn1ght on Tuesday March 26, 2024 @06:56PM (#39833760)
> all of us except one tried to hold back the force of the train

This reminds me of a vivid memory I have. I’d just finished a shift cooking, and out back of our restaurant there were railroad tracks. I had a beer and smoke out there with my shift mate, and a train was rolling by. I thought it would be fun to practice jumping on the train. So I do a few passes jogging alongside it, hopping on and off. Then my buddy, standing still, reached out and grabs a rung of a ladder on one of the cars. It immediately picked him up, but he gripped harder due to being startled. He got ragdolled through the air about 10 feet from where he was initially standing.

Kids, don’t play with trains (trespassing issues aside).

Re:The Francis Scott Key Bridge in Baltimore, Maryland Has C... by jasonwatkinspdx on Tuesday March 26, 2024 @10:36PM (#39835159)
A friend of mine was on the light rail here downtown when it stopped unexpectedly. He was confused and walked outside only to see the train had hit a fire truck and pushed it nearly a block before it stopped. He had no idea there was even a collision inside the train.

Trains are very scary stuff even when moving at a crawl.

A 110,000 ton ship collision is something the human brain is just not going to understand intuitively.

Re:The Francis Scott Key Bridge in Baltimore, Maryland Has C... by KineticLensman on Tuesday March 26, 2024 @09:14AM (#39827404)
> enormously massive objects moving very slowly messes with human perception and "common sense"

Yes, hence warnings to amateur boat users (e.g. on a canal boat) not to try to stop a collision with the bank using your arms or legs.

[Edit] Boats can also do things that are unintuitive if you are used to driving a car. E.g. turning round the centre of gravity when you steer rather than following the front wheels.

Re:The Francis Scott Key Bridge in Baltimore, Maryland Has C... by smogcutter on Tuesday March 26, 2024 @09:49AM (#39827794)
In the black powder era of warfare, soldiers were given similar warnings about “slowly” rolling cannonballs.

People would think they could stop them like soccer balls, and lose a foot.

Re:The Francis Scott Key Bridge in Baltimore, Maryland Has C... by bmelton on Tuesday March 26, 2024 @09:50AM (#39827814)
There are similar warnings for sailing vessels, but because the standing rigging of the ship is usually kept in high enough tension that putting your hands on a pilon to stop a collision might leave your hands vulnerable to being cut off by a mainsail's shrouds.
Re:The Francis Scott Key Bridge in Baltimore, Maryland Has C... by KineticLensman on Tuesday March 26, 2024 @09:58AM (#39827895)
Ouch! That reminded me of seeing someone get a rope burn from a line on a yacht. I always wear gloves when handling lines on a boat nowadays.
Re:The Francis Scott Key Bridge in Baltimore, Maryland Has C... by acdha on Tuesday March 26, 2024 @11:23AM (#39829082)
According to https://gcaptain.com/ship-lost-control-before-hitting-baltim... they were going 7.6kn so your figures are “optimistic” by a factor of two. I really don’t know how much an engineer could have done to stop 600M N/s - that’s just an enormous amount of energy.
Re:The Francis Scott Key Bridge in Baltimore, Maryland Has C... by mannykannot on Tuesday March 26, 2024 @10:05AM (#39827979)
> If it was going even 5kn...

I don't know what sort of speed ships travel in harbors (though I know that they are faster than they appear.) In this case, it was an ebb tide (though within an hour of the low) which might have added something to the ship's speed.

https://tides.willyweather.com/md/baltimore-city/patapsco-ri...

Re:The Francis Scott Key Bridge in Baltimore, Maryland Has C... by apaprocki on Tuesday March 26, 2024 @11:26AM (#39829106)
<checks terminal> "current draft is 12.2m with 116851 t DWT" and last reported speed was 6.7kt.

Good estimation! :)

Re:The Francis Scott Key Bridge in Baltimore, Maryland Has C... by db0255 on Tuesday March 26, 2024 @02:54PM (#39831458)
I saw radar that showed the ship was going 8.7 knots. And 7.6 knots before colliding.
Re:The Francis Scott Key Bridge in Baltimore, Maryland Has C... by G0dchi1d on Tuesday March 26, 2024 @10:18AM (#39828134)
Thank you, I've been trying to get a ballpark on the weight, appreciated.
Re:The Francis Scott Key Bridge in Baltimore, Maryland Has C... by a_e_k on Tuesday March 26, 2024 @02:07PM (#39830918)
Crazy! Going by the higher 7.6 kn figure mentioned elsewhere in this thread, that'd be closer to 450 million N s.

For another comparison, Wikipedia gives an estimate of "Apollo 11 launched from Earth to orbit" at 495 million N s [1]. So this is a momentum that's order-of-magnitude comparable to space launches.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton-second

Re:The Francis Scott Key Bridge in Baltimore, Maryland Has C... by 1letterunixname on Tuesday March 26, 2024 @04:47PM (#39832657)
Your math appears off by an order of magnitude. KE = ½mv^2. [J]

Ship KE = 0.5 * (114000 short tons) * (7.5 knots)^2 = ~7.7e8 J.

747 KE = 0.5 * (510,000 lbs) * (560 mph)^2 = ~7.25e9 J.

747 avg weight = (MTOW + OEW) / 2 = ~510,000 lbs