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Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by ajmurmann on Monday March 25, 2024 @06:51PM (#39822135)
What a bizarre question. Me and many others are paying $20+ for these services. The electricity cost is already priced in and subscribers looks at the price and are fine with that price. If the price comes from dev costs, electricity, capital expenses etc. is irrelevant. There are really no alternatives either (well, I could go to 99Designs, pay $100 and wait days). People pay a lot for this and every day new use cases get discovered, so clearly more services like this get built.

Edit: " Shouldn’t we wait until the research has created an efficient architecture that is easily scalable first?"

Who is "we"? If I think I can offer a product that uses AI and after paying API requests to OpenAI I can turn a profit, I'll build it. API requests will only get cheaper, but why should I wait for that if I can turn a profit now?

Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by bigiain on Monday March 25, 2024 @07:48PM (#39822605)
"API requests will only get cheaper"

You've somehow missed all the "enshitification" processes Cory Doctorow and others have been documenting?

"Here is how platforms die: first, they are good to their users; then they abuse their users to make things better for their business customers; finally, they abuse those business customers to claw back all the value for themselves. Then, they die. I call this enshittification."

OpenAI (et al.) are all deeply in the "First, they are good to their users" stage of their business plan, but they WILL. NOT. STAY. THERE. Whatever product relying on OpenAI you can offer/build/grow into a business, sooner or later you're going to be squeezed for every cent in profit, in the same way as companies who were convinced Facebook was a great alternative to running their own web presence are these days - having to pay to ensure content that people who've like and subscribed to their pages end up seeing anything they post.

Your $20 subscription is not even close to covering electricity costs - never mind covering capitalisation costs for $1.6 billion data centres with another $1.6 billion dollars worth of GPUs to put in them. (Think about it. Even if that 3.2 billion dollar datacenter was funded borrowing at only 1% - you'd need over 130,000 paying subscribers at $20/month just to cover the interest on the loans.)

Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by ajmurmann on Monday March 25, 2024 @08:01PM (#39822716)
"You've somehow missed all the "enshitification" processes Cory Doctorow and others have been documenting?"

I read about it, but don't believe it's a new law now that affects everything with no exceptions. Even is OpenAI wants to go from explore and expand into extract mode, open-source models are getting better every day and will create a decent floor.

> you'd need over 130,000 paying subscribers at $20/month just to cover the interest on the loans.

Maybe I live in a bubble (I definitely do), but that subscriber number seems quite reasonable and of course omits additional revenue from their APIs. Also if OpenAI wants to lose money, be my guest. I definitely enjoyed my VC-subsidized Uber rides of the past.

Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by r00fus on Monday March 25, 2024 @09:00PM (#39823165)
It's not a property of the company. It's a property of the funding mechanism. Anything getting its funds from VC or hedge-funds will eventually succumb to this - it's the capital speaking.
Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by ajmurmann on Monday March 25, 2024 @09:07PM (#39823213)
Only if the market isn't competitive enough to allow for it. Especially if OSS LLMs are viable companies have little leverage to go shitty.

What's the course of action you recommend? Using nothing that's VC funded because Corey Doctorow says it will become shitty eventually?

Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by r00fus on Monday March 25, 2024 @09:12PM (#39823267)
The course of action is to lobby your representatives to amend the tax code to close the carried interest loophole.
Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by wakawaka28 on Monday March 25, 2024 @08:03PM (#39822736)
So what's your solution? Sit on your hands and build nothing, leaving potentially millions or billions of dollars on the table? Whine about things that haven't happened, may never happen, and could be worked around if they did happen? Google is successful and it charges most people nothing. So it is possible to make a successful business out of providing a service at low(ish) cost.

Of course you wouldn't build a multi-billion dollar data center for a single application bringing in a pittance. But that's not what anyone is doing. Demand is high and data centers can be shared between many different companies.

Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by peteradio on Monday March 25, 2024 @09:28PM (#39823367)
Or it could wind up being a pretty big waste of resources. On the one hand you have the ability to extract "apparent knowledge" in a conversational form. On the other hand you are killing the ability to create new knowledge and as an added bonus consolidate power into service providers that work worse than ever.
Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by chii on Monday March 25, 2024 @09:50PM (#39823483)
> a pretty big waste of resources.

as long as that resource is privately funded paid for, i don't care.

It's only a problem if this resource is taxpayer subsidized.

Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by wakawaka28 on Tuesday March 26, 2024 @12:33AM (#39824289)
This "conversational knowledge" stuff is probably just a primitive and inefficient form of AI that may be superceded by other innovations. It need not have any real impact on new knowledge, any more than billions of ordinary people babbeling for hundreds of years. The service provider concern is understandable, but I think competition may keep this tech available to everyone who can reasonably afford it. We still have private computers and software despite the possibility for everything to be run from data centers and using proprietary subscription-based software.
Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by webdood90 on Monday March 25, 2024 @07:04PM (#39822251)
Ah, a true capitalist mind. The only consideration is the almighty dollar!

Perhaps it would be better for it to be efficient because it uses less energy and in general is a good thing to do for the world. I understand there aren't financial incentives around that so it's probably difficult for you to agree with.

Edit: It seems simply suggesting we do better is enough for people to lose their minds.

Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by infecto on Monday March 25, 2024 @07:16PM (#39822375)
I was going to respond in sarcasm but realized your comment does not even deserve that.

Governments of any shape are unable to accurately pick which industry to allow or prevent. Even harder would be creating legislation that carves out specific industry.

You can tax the externalities of the use of electricity. Please don’t create pandering comments with zero substance.

I don’t like bitcoin but who am I to tell people what to spend money on.

Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by chii on Monday March 25, 2024 @09:56PM (#39823530)
> Governments of any shape are unable to accurately pick which industry to allow or prevent.

i would say that some gov'ts in the world does do this - famously the chinese CCP.

They dictate by providing state funding for industries they deem important (for whatever reason - geopolitically strategic, military, or welfare, etc). Whether it's the most "efficient" form of capital allocation is irrelevant (for them).

The people do not have a say, and in fact, cannot be doing any form of criticism - they may have feedback, but only in so far as the party allows said feedback. It's implicit that the CCP is picking for the "greater good" - but who is the judge of that? CCP itself is!

So by an act of tautology, they are doing it most efficiently!

Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by amomchilov on Monday March 25, 2024 @10:40PM (#39823786)
Ah yes, the one who over-allocated so much capital into real estate that it has more unused apartments than the rest of the world combined, 5 times over

With the greatest housing bubble has ever seen, and a deflationary spiral around the corner.

Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by infecto on Tuesday March 26, 2024 @07:20AM (#39826469)
Governments certainly try. The US does the similar efforts through subsidy type programs, I don't think the Chinese government are able to accurately pick industry any better. They have more force to put behind their decisions, like building ultra cheap real estate, roads and general infrastructure but I am not sure they have the ability to pick a specific piece of industry any better.
Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by stavros on Monday March 25, 2024 @07:17PM (#39822388)
Why is using less energy good thing for the world? Using energy in itself is fine, you can use all the solar you want and nobody is going to complain. Nuclear is marginally less harmless, but still quite fine. Don't use coal or gas.
Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by lebean on Monday March 25, 2024 @07:20PM (#39822412)
A person with this kind of mindset will tell less-developed nations to stop developing fossil fuel infrastructure because any more impact on the planet is unjustified.
Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by wakawaka28 on Monday March 25, 2024 @08:05PM (#39822746)
A person with that kind of mindset will tell you that you don't deserve to live because you use too many resources lol
Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by amomchilov on Monday March 25, 2024 @10:40PM (#39823793)
Yet, they sure do love their lifestyle
Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by jasonm23 on Monday March 25, 2024 @10:58PM (#39823881)
Sigh. Better not save our habitat, because poseurs.

Now that's a laudable mindset.

Human idiocy driven extinction

Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by wakawaka28 on Tuesday March 26, 2024 @12:24AM (#39824258)
The hypocrisy is as good a reason as any to keep it real. But the real problem is people so brainwashed by green propaganda that they think no human activity is worthwhile. This AI stuff for example might appear wasteful, but it is very promising as a means to improve efficiency in many industries and improve people's quality of life, which may in fact reduce pollution. Even if it increased pollution somehow, that has to be weighed against all other outcomes. You can't just look at any old use of resources and declare that it isn't worth it and expect everyone to agree with you. Different people value different things in life, and that's ok.
Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by infecto on Tuesday March 26, 2024 @07:36AM (#39826590)
I don't think that has to be the case for anyone in this chain. I am very conscious of my use of resources. I also realize that there is massive green washing of things. Lots of things marketed as the "green" way are also not that great for the planet, sometimes a sheet of cling wrap or a ziploc bag is ok to use. It also is true that often people love to project their feelings for saving the planet but are living a lifestyle that says otherwise.

When it comes to energy use, I don't believe anyone should have the power to say what should be allowed or not. That will stifle innovation. For every innovation there must have been thousands if not more failures.

Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by ajmurmann on Monday March 25, 2024 @07:17PM (#39822385)
Tax negative externalities
Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by itsoktocry on Monday March 25, 2024 @07:15PM (#39822367)
In what sense is using less energy good for the world? All forward progress has been accompanied by more energy usage.
Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by apantel on Monday March 25, 2024 @07:11PM (#39822326)
I don’t think you would want to live in the world we’d have if we rolled back all of the energy expenditure done in the name of profit over the past 200 years since the discovery of oil. You wouldn’t have anything. You wouldn’t be able to cross the Atlantic lest you burn coal to produce steam.
Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by reactordev on Monday March 25, 2024 @07:16PM (#39822369)
As a sailor, who crossed oceans, on nothing but wind power (and solar), I resent that - but I totally get what you’re saying. The world would be, different, to say the least.
Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by TheRoque on Monday March 25, 2024 @07:18PM (#39822396)
That's a bit easy to say this. "We progressed during capitalism hence capitalism allowed the progress" but you don't know at all. You also don't know how will the next 1000 years look if we continue to do things in the name of profit. I think that making hypothetical branches like that is just useless because there are so many more factors that just "capitalism or communism"
Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by not-my-account on Monday March 25, 2024 @07:09PM (#39822310)
How aren’t there financial incentives for using less energy? The production of energy costs money.
Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by webdood90 on Monday March 25, 2024 @07:14PM (#39822356)
I didn't suggest otherwise. The person I replied to said it was a bizarre question, which I disagree with. Their are obvious benefits outside of money.
Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by not-my-account on Tuesday March 26, 2024 @12:31AM (#39824281)
> I understand there aren't financial incentives around that so it's probably difficult for you to agree with.
Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by webdood90 on Tuesday March 26, 2024 @12:59PM (#39830151)
re: ... in general is a good thing to do for the world
Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by not-my-account on Tuesday March 26, 2024 @06:41PM (#39833663)
Ah, thanks for the clarification. Well, since energy costs money, and using less energy is good, isn’t using less energy incentivized?
Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by not-my-account on Tuesday March 26, 2024 @06:42PM (#39833672)
Unless you’re making a more general point “good things are not incentivized”, which I feel is a difficult thing to argue or make statements about
Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by bamboozled on Monday March 25, 2024 @07:20PM (#39822415)
Maybe anyone with a conscience, nuclear energy should be going to decarbonisation of the existing economy not to expanding a new industry en masse.

People are funny on this forum, when it was Bitcoin it was the devil and now it’s helping us complete our lines of code it’s ok to require a nuclear power plant to run such a system? I guess whatever benefits the individual is ok ? Silicone valley types are funny too because it was all about developing fusion to save humanity now it’s about developing fusion to cat gifs?

These products need to be taxed to price in these externalities we can’t keep this up, it’s ridiculous.

Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by ajmurmann on Monday March 25, 2024 @07:24PM (#39822439)
"These products need to be taxed to price in these externalities we can’t keep this up, it’s ridiculous."

The negative externality you are worried about isn't AI, but pollution/carbon emissions. Tax pollution instead of deciding for other people what use case is worth it.

Edit: To be clear, I am all for this. I'd love to see a massive(!) carbon tax.

Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by bamboozled on Monday March 25, 2024 @07:45PM (#39822578)
Which is fine and I agree but you know that for sure, the power big tech has over US politics means this will never happen.
Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by SmooL on Monday March 25, 2024 @07:29PM (#39822474)
There's no good reason for BTC to be set up to use that much energy. There are viable, proven alternatives like proof of stake. I'd also be more forgiving if BTC only required a given amount of power, but no, the system is designed such the power requirement is related to the cost of flops/watt - it's specifically designed such that the system will use more power as power becomes cheaper.
Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by bamboozled on Monday March 25, 2024 @07:48PM (#39822601)
No but as others are arguing in this thread, “power is fungible” etc etc, “it’s not up to you to decide where the energy goes”. Double standards in my opinion.
Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by sdenton4 on Monday March 25, 2024 @07:30PM (#39822483)
The difference is that, by design, the best (cheapest!) Bitcoin you can buy is the Bitcoin you buy today. It only gets more expensive as more people use it and the supply of new Bitcoin decreases.

By contrast, the ai we have today is the worst ai it will ever be. Quality will go up with time, and price will go down, as incentives drive the development of better, cheaper models.

Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by bamboozled on Monday March 25, 2024 @07:47PM (#39822597)
I personally don’t think there is lot of evidence to support this theory? If ChatGPT 5 requires more power to run, it will get more power to run.
Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by sdenton4 on Monday March 25, 2024 @11:07PM (#39823928)
Look at how neural voice synthesis has evolved over the last five years. It's gone from science fiction to extremely expensive to 'can run in real time on a phone' thanks to a combination of hardware and algorithmic improvements... But mostly algorithmic improvements.

Algorithmic improvements are coming quickly in generative ml. We're still in very early days.

Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by xxpor on Monday March 25, 2024 @07:27PM (#39822459)
>Maybe anyone with a conscience, nuclear energy should be going to decarbonisation of the existing economy not to expanding a new industry en masse

The world isn't static. Electricity is fungible, it doesn't matter what it goes to.

Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by colechristensen on Monday March 25, 2024 @07:32PM (#39822494)
Bitcoin doesn’t have any real utility besides being a toy or committing crimes.

Machine learning has utility, not just in theory but to plenty of people, including me. It has helped me do my job faster.

You can put tax on energy from carbon, fine. There’s no justification for taxing energy intensive things by themselves because you don’t like using energy. Human energy usage is and should be growing exponentially (and not an S curve) besides occasional pauses when efficiencies are found (like LED lighting using something like 90% less energy than incandescent).

Fossil fuels are clearly going away anyway, not because of ideals either, solar is just way cheaper now.

Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by nytesky on Monday March 25, 2024 @10:04PM (#39823578)
Do you believe $20 captures all the cost of you AI queries over the period? It’s not subsidied by investors money to build market share?
Re:As AI booms, land near nuclear power plants becomes hot r... by ajmurmann on Wednesday March 27, 2024 @11:23AM (#39840491)
Between my flatrate usage and companies paying for additional API quota, I'd expect them to at least be in a position where they could be profitable if they slowed down new trading. When if that wasn't the case though it just shifts the obvious answer to the expectation of future profitability. There is clearly massive demand for this tech.