The discussion here seems to focus on the owning/founding class sides perspective. This side, understandably, does not like high salaries and workers rights.

Not sure if you are serious with your comment but I'll bite - when you start a company, after going through all the hell of starting it and making it profitable (which is often multiyear draining effort which destroys families and health easily, risk of losing literally everything is very real), you want to give all those money to other people, who put just their expected 40h effort with maximum salary security, 5-6 weeks of paid holidays etc.

This mindset is pervasive in Europe, and reason we are so much behind compared where we could be. Which can be fine, focus more on social aspect if thats your priority, but then good old greed kicks in and everybody wants those sweet money and benefits they bring, without necessary risks and downsides.

World doesn't work that way and never will, its simple math at the core.

> when you start a company, after going through all the hell of starting it and making it profitable (which is often multiyear draining effort which destroys families and health easily, risk of losing literally everything is very real), you want to give all those money to other people, who put just their expected 40h effort with maximum salary security, 5-6 weeks of paid holidays etc.

"I took on some risks to build up my personal wealth, now I am entitled to be as exploitative as I can be. They only work what their contract dictates, fuck them".

This is precisely why regulations and labor protections are important. People like you are the living proof that if allowed, workers would be bled dry.

There should be a balance between workers bleeding dry in capitalism, and workers don't have (good) jobs because it's too much hassle with "regulations and labor protections", and is not worth the outcome.

Really, if in a (over)socialist country I have an idea to build my personal wealth, why would I give jobs to all these protected guys, if I can leave them jobless, and get €€€ using minimal team I can assemble. Ideally - being solopreneur at all.

> There should be a balance between workers bleeding dry in capitalism, and workers don't have (good) jobs because it's too much hassle with "regulations and labor protections", and is not worth the outcome.

I happen to know quite a few people from Germany. All things considered, there are good jobs and they have decent living standards.

> Really, if in a (over)socialist country

Germany? (Over)socialist? Are you high?

> I have an idea to build my personal wealth, why would I give jobs to all these protected guys, if I can leave them jobless, and get €€€ using minimal team I can assemble. Ideally - being solopreneur at all.

By all means, do it. What are you waiting for?

Fact is there is money to be made by employing these "protected guys", they are certainly not jobless.

> Germany? (Over)socialist? Are you high?

(from what I researched) To the extent that Germany wouldn't allow me to invoice foreign company as a freelancer, because it's considered false employment. The state is so nanny that wants to impose their labor protection and social security on people who visibly don't want it. In other countries, I observe there is a kind of "social contract" (at least for programmers) to allow people work through business entities, pay less taxes and get less protection, if they're competent enough to make this kinds of contracts.

> Fact is there is money to be made by employing these "protected guys", they are certainly not jobless.

They are. Portugal and Spain impose a lot of socialist regulations backed by high taxes, yet they complain about brain drain (pt) and unemployment (es). People don't want to come and open businesses to these very attractive places for relocation. Instead, cold small Estonia gets their startup boom, surprise-surprise.

> They are. Portugal and Spain

Shifting goalposts much?

Somalia probably has no worker protections (it barely has a government), and it's not a thriving job environment.

If we are to just name countries without any criteria, two can play this game.

By your measurement, nordic countries, the Netherlands and so on should be depressing nightmares with hordes of unemployable people, given their strong labor protections. And surprise, they are not.

Last I heard a worker could leave his employer at any time for a another job elsewhere, taking any skills and know-how with them. Who is bleeding who?

It has always been the case that to best protect the worker you need to create a thriving economy with alternative employment for workers to arb their employers, not regulations or unions.

> Last I heard a worker could leave his employer at any time for a another job elsewhere, taking any skills and know-how with them. Who is bleeding who?

Of course, we never heard of employers colluding to suppress wages, no sir.

> It has always been the case that to best protect the worker you need to create a thriving economy with alternative employment for workers to arb their employers, not regulations or unions.

This is the bullshit of the ages. Jobs exist in countries where worker protections are high, believe it or not. It's the reason why I migrated to Europe for that matter.

Please stop with these primitive personal attacks, they have no place in this forum and I am sure you can do better than that.

You my friend need some life experience. Plenty of 20-something with same opinion in Europe, much less 30+.

> Please stop with these primitive personal

I made no personal attacks, I merely exposed the bullshit of the original reply by reducing it to it's more basic premises.

> You my friend need some life experience.

Having a career for more than 2 decades (including FAANG on my resume), in 3 different countries, is not enough of a life experience?

I also have a child, bought a house with the fruits of my labor, always paid my taxes, etc. What more experience do I need?

Oh wait, I get it. You are making a personal attack. Since you have no defence against my arguments, your only recourse is an Ad Hominem by implying I am too young and have no life experience. The last resort of those without any arguments.

You are entitled to your view but I think it is a little unempathetic to be unable or unwilling to put yourself in the shoes of entrepreneurs when the topic is how attractive a place is for them. Of course, all things being equal, a business wants to pay as little for labor as possible.

Speaking as a German, wrt pay I think this topic is not quite so simple. Germany doesn't have particularly high wages and one of the reasons for that is that labor costs are so high. How can that be? Simple: all labor protection that we have is, at end, simply a cost. Yes, we have payed sick leave. Very civilized. But German employees call out sick, on average, 11 days a years. That's almost two weeks pay for no labor. In a global, competitive labor market that cost isn't coming out of the profits of the company. It's coming out of our wages. And so it is with all the other "goodies" that we get.

Btw, our cohesion isn't really what it used to be either.

> You are entitled to your view but I think it is a little unempathetic to be unable or unwilling to put yourself in the shoes of entrepreneurs when the topic is how attractive a place is for them. Of course, all things being equal, a business wants to pay as little for labor as possible.

"Can someone think of the poor entrepreneurs? They just want to exploit workers freely, but the mean government keeps getting in the way. Why would they create rules that protect the people? This is so unfair"

Yeah, thanks for this run of the mill communist bullshit that doesn't have anything to do with what I said. "Oh yeah, pay for work is EXPLOITATION guys, guys, guys, the only ETHICAL way is for daddy government to force people to work at gun point".

Can you point on a doll where the mean government touched you?

around here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide