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Re:BYD launches cheaper Seagull EV with $9,700 starting pric... by aurareturn on Thursday March 07, 2024 @01:35AM (#39625717)
US won’t ever lead in EVs because it’s the largest producer of oil in the world. The government has incentives to keep ICE as long as possible, thus, hard to be competitive in EVs over the long run.

China meanwhile, is trying its hardest to remove its dependency on foreign oil.

Europe’s incentives are more aligned with China’s.

Re:BYD launches cheaper Seagull EV with $9,700 starting pric... by tw1984 on Thursday March 07, 2024 @02:09AM (#39626002)
> China meanwhile, is trying its hardest to remove its dependency on foreign oil.

Dependency on foreign oil is obviously one reason, but let's don't miss the big picture here

China is trying its hardest in all sectors, everything. With over 1 billion people that are just dead poor, there is no choice but to compete the hardest with everyone on everything. Semiconductor, ev, 5G, bio tech, AI, ship building, high speed rail, internet, solar panel etc, the list goes on and on.

Is there anything China is not trying its best to compete?

Re:BYD launches cheaper Seagull EV with $9,700 starting pric... by aurareturn on Thursday March 07, 2024 @02:38AM (#39626231)
I don't disagree with you. I think being energy dependent is a main goal of China's.

But in the grand scheme of things, the Chinese just want to secure their future and finances, just like anyone else.

Re:BYD launches cheaper Seagull EV with $9,700 starting pric... by tw1984 on Thursday March 07, 2024 @03:06AM (#39626423)
> I think being energy dependent is a main goal of China's.

There is no way for China to be energy independent. The choice is really just choosing importing what kind of energy from which countries.

Imported energy is not a bad thing. It is actually a great way to balance trade. You can't expect the Chinese economy to run a trade surplus like hundreds of billions $ each year with the US and EU. Buying US natural gas is pretty good as long as you have a solid reliable alternative plan, e.g. Russian energy.

Re:BYD launches cheaper Seagull EV with $9,700 starting pric... by gibolt on Thursday March 07, 2024 @03:19AM (#39626510)
China is physically the same size as the U.S. They absolutely want energy independence, and will probably achieve it for the majority of use within 10 years.

ICE car sales requirements are going up drastically this year, meaning most new sales could be EV within 5 years, and they could sell EVs at such scale after that that a ban on gas cars in cities would convert the rest of the fleet in another 5-10 years.

Once you have cheap, abundant energy all the industrial segments are highly motivated to switch.

Re:BYD launches cheaper Seagull EV with $9,700 starting pric... by tw1984 on Thursday March 07, 2024 @03:36AM (#39626625)
> They absolutely want energy independence, and will probably achieve it for the majority of use within 10 years.

No, China will not want that.

Being the largest oil importer from the highly unstable middle east provides an unique opportunity to get involved in the regional affairs. Stop buying middle east oil is like giving up the support from a huge chunk of developing countries. Let's call it suicidal.

Re:BYD launches cheaper Seagull EV with $9,700 starting pric... by maxglute on Thursday March 07, 2024 @04:29AM (#39626969)
Being best customer doesn't always come with proportional perks.

US oil/lng imports from MENA down to ~1/3 of peak. IIRC below PRC current imports which exceed record US highs. Meanwhile US is now net fossil exporter and direct competitor. Same with PRC EV/green exports will be antagonistic to medium/long MENA fossil/lng exporters interests. Being current/historic best customer, how much energy does PRC have to import to get MENA to swap US military bases with PRC ones? And for how long? My guess is too much and for too long. PRC enduring interests in MENA is for energy security anyway, once that's gone, their essential interests will dissapate, much like it has with US trying to move from CENTCOM to Indopac post shale/lng independance.

But realistically, PRC will be dependant on imported fossil for industrial inputs for a while, the important goal is to wean off strategic sectors like transportation 7/14millionbarrels and use domestic oil of 4mb for mainly industry, with 3-4mb gap filled by imports - i.e. energy security/independance goals is changing energy mix to 7mb per day, 4mb domestic, 3-4mb imports vs current 10mb imports out of 14mb consumption. That gap of 4m is still large enough to influence select exporters strategically if targetted instead of current 10m distributed imports. But medium/long term that's a bribe for RU cooperation.

Like if PRC really wanted to gain influence with MENA, they'd start a TW war and escalate to hitting US oil and lng plants and disrupt US exports to put MENA fossil export back on top. Many would also call that suicidal. Long term PRC best to learn from US and avoid MENA drama and sell EVs / electric / renewable infra to rest of world.

Re:BYD launches cheaper Seagull EV with $9,700 starting pric... by todd3834 on Thursday March 07, 2024 @02:18AM (#39626085)
Christian churches? I’m not trying to be funny or controversial but definitely an area they don’t seem interested in.
Re:BYD launches cheaper Seagull EV with $9,700 starting pric... by nixonpjoshua on Thursday March 07, 2024 @02:01AM (#39625913)
I think people forget that Tesla is an US company sometimes... that being said, adoption in the US is probably going to be slowed by cheap gas compared to Europe or Asia
Re:BYD launches cheaper Seagull EV with $9,700 starting pric... by seanmcdirmid on Thursday March 07, 2024 @01:38AM (#39625739)
If you think that the USA producing oil gives it incentive to lead in ICE cars, I think you’ll be disappointed. The real outlier are the Japanese, they made bets on hydrogen that aren’t panning out, and so are really behind.
Re:BYD launches cheaper Seagull EV with $9,700 starting pric... by holoduke on Thursday March 07, 2024 @01:39AM (#39625740)
Europa more aligned with China? I don't think so. They are very much opposed to evs from China. Thinking about added import taxes to reduce the massive import of Chinese cars. Europe is also on old school oil continent in decline.
Re:BYD launches cheaper Seagull EV with $9,700 starting pric... by aurareturn on Thursday March 07, 2024 @01:50AM (#39625813)
Mercedes sells more cars in China than all of Europe. China is Audi’s biggest market. China is BMW’s biggest market outside of Germany.

So if Europe decides to prevent Chinese EVs from coming into the market, China would do the same for European cars. This is why Chinese EVs are prioritizing Europe over US as a market. Plus the aforementioned fact that Europe wants to move off oil faster than US wants to.

Re:BYD launches cheaper Seagull EV with $9,700 starting pric... by seanmcdirmid on Thursday March 07, 2024 @01:55AM (#39625858)
Those are all JVs, Tesla is the only foreign auto company in China that isn’t part of a 51-49 JV. Europe would probably require china to reciprocate if they wanted to start exporting cars made in China into Europe (since China didn’t import many cars made in Europe in the first place).
Re:BYD launches cheaper Seagull EV with $9,700 starting pric... by wenyuanyu on Thursday March 07, 2024 @02:20AM (#39626113)
Future automotive joint ventures (JVs) in China will cease following the completion of existing contract term.

China is lifting all foreign investment restrictions in all its manufacturing sector this year[0][1].

[0] https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/china-to-remove-all-restri... [1] https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/3254259/c...

Re:BYD launches cheaper Seagull EV with $9,700 starting pric... by seanmcdirmid on Thursday March 07, 2024 @11:36AM (#39631057)
Not sure why you were downvoted, but that's great. The JV structure no longer benefits china, However, China should still expect blowback from having their economy protected for so long.
Re:BYD launches cheaper Seagull EV with $9,700 starting pric... by holoduke on Thursday March 07, 2024 @01:56AM (#39625871)
Yes for Germany its a bit of a difficult situation, but Europe is itself is actually looking into adding more tax to Chinese evs. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/eu-set... The whole Europese car industry is in a bad shape today. And it successfully lobbied an extension of allowable ice cars. They might be more inclined to promote evs, but certainly not on the level of China. Us and Europe are much more alike.
Re:BYD launches cheaper Seagull EV with $9,700 starting pric... by csomar on Thursday March 07, 2024 @01:40AM (#39625746)
> Europe’s ==incentives== are more aligned with China’s.
Re:BYD launches cheaper Seagull EV with $9,700 starting pric... by amou234 on Thursday March 07, 2024 @02:14AM (#39626049)
Europe is not going to commit seppuku and willingly allow Chinese EVs to destroy their internal car industry. Especially since China is now more and more visibly aiding Russia in its war against Europe. Tariff from EU will stop Chinese EVs dead in the water. In fact, today, there was news that EU is set to allow possible retroactive tariffs on Chinese EVs [1]. And there's an ongoing EU anti-subsidy probe that will conclude this year, most likely resulting in more tariffs.

[1] https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/eu-set...

Re:BYD launches cheaper Seagull EV with $9,700 starting pric... by tdudhhu on Thursday March 07, 2024 @02:33AM (#39626196)
Not only that, there are also big concerns when it comes to spying.

Huawei's net gear is alread being replaced with brands like Nokia and Ericsson. And car tech is becoming much more advanced so that it can also be used to spy on people.

Re:BYD launches cheaper Seagull EV with $9,700 starting pric... by aurareturn on Thursday March 07, 2024 @02:39AM (#39626239)
"Spying". The default word people here use to justify we shouldn't let China compete at the highest value chain.
Re:BYD launches cheaper Seagull EV with $9,700 starting pric... by tdudhhu on Thursday March 07, 2024 @03:20AM (#39626519)
Also true, but China is spying on their own people already. I would not be surprised if Chinese EVs are sending data to the government.

So the tech is there. And then it comes to trust. Will they not send data when they sell cars outside China?

Re:BYD launches cheaper Seagull EV with $9,700 starting pric... by yard2010 on Thursday March 07, 2024 @06:34AM (#39627771)
Yep. Call it whatever you like. The west should not let China compete at all. Not before we learn Winnie The Pooh's plans for the world in 2049.

Cooperating with this evil is like driving into a brick wall to demonstrate how much freedom you have.

Re:BYD launches cheaper Seagull EV with $9,700 starting pric... by aurareturn on Thursday March 07, 2024 @09:03AM (#39629167)
Evil depends on what perspective you're looking at.

Every American has been fed so much propaganda that they see this as good vs evil fight.

Meanwhile, when I visited China, people there only saw this as a political fight. A theater for economical gains. That's it.

But in order to sell the American public on their actions, politicians have to demonize their foreign opponents in every way possible - often portraying them as "evil".

Re:BYD launches cheaper Seagull EV with $9,700 starting pric... by hotdogscout on Wednesday March 13, 2024 @08:27PM (#39699240)
I'm sorry but you have no grounds to claim you know Chinese people's political outlook based on a visit.

Mainland China is still cut off from knowing a big chunk of human thought. Realism - the school of thought you're describing - is the Marxist mode in a place you can't vocally disagree without serious consequences. No wonder it's what you heard.

Re:BYD launches cheaper Seagull EV with $9,700 starting pric... by throwaway4good on Thursday March 07, 2024 @02:20AM (#39626114)
You will probably see european companies integrating with chinese suppliers (like Volkswagen / XPeng etc.); a bit like Tesla. European car markers still have much better brands and sales channels.
Re:BYD launches cheaper Seagull EV with $9,700 starting pric... by Al-Khwarizmi on Thursday March 07, 2024 @02:40AM (#39626243)
On the contrary, Europe is committing seppuku (and I say this as an European) by desperately clinging to an industry that is, and wants to keep being, obsolete.

We have an almost negligible amount of oil, very far from covering our own consumption. We are very reliant on imports. It should have been our utmost interest, not now but already a decade or so ago, to tell our car industry to wake up once and for all and electrify. Instead, they doubled down on ICEs. Every day we have news in major newspapers, I suppose subsidized by Stellantis and Volkswagen, dwelling on how much EVs suck (full of fallacies like they will always be expensive, they actually emit more CO2 than ICEs if you consider manufacturing, sales are going down in X country - when actually it's invariably the first or even second derivative which goes down -, etc.) - it's pathetic.

We have rampant inflation (to a large extent, precisely due to reliance in fossil fuel imports and the stop of inflows from Russia). People complain that even the lowest-end ICE cars have gone to €20K while anything more or less considered midrange is €30K, when only a decade ago sub-€10K cars and midrange €15K cars were a thing. European ICE cars are ridiculously uncompetitive so most people who want an EV and have the money buy a Tesla.

And the response when someone wants to bring cars at the prices people want is to slap large tariffs... hell, I'm far from a free-market believer and I generally support tariffs as a way to support local industry and avoid external dependence, but this must be the paradigmatic example where they are a bad idea, with our industry only wanting to cling to ICE and being patted in the back for it. What do they want the EU to become, a country stuck in the past where you can see a fleet of cars from decades ago, like Cuba? Do they think it can even work? It's not only China, when Tesla releases the Model 2 it will be game over for the EU car industry anyway.

They are already very late, any measure that doesn't focus on "Electrify. Yesterday" will only deepen an already dire situation.