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Re:World War II 'rumor clinics' helped America battle wild g... by WesleyLivesay on Wednesday March 06, 2024 @11:14AM (#39617436)
An interesting article for sure. There were all kinds of things done by the various nations during the war to control the information available to the populous and to try and influence their beliefs.

I do think it is interesting that this article never uses the word "propaganda" to describe what was being done by the newspapers here. It undoubtedly was propaganda, but in the modern world that word carries a very negative connotation so it is only described as counter- or anti-propaganda.

Re:World War II 'rumor clinics' helped America battle wild g... by cjs_ac on Wednesday March 06, 2024 @11:24AM (#39617549)
'Propaganda' is just a Latin gerundive meaning 'thing needing to be propagated'. The word was used in Germany and the Soviet Union, whereas the United Kingdom had a Ministry of Information in the World Wars doing the exact same things.

The Anglophone world has negative connotations for the word 'propaganda' purely because our enemies used that word more than us.

Re:World War II 'rumor clinics' helped America battle wild g... by slowturtle on Wednesday March 06, 2024 @11:45AM (#39617806)
Just because "we" are from English-speaking countries doesn't mean "we" have the same "enemies", and the idea that people are assigned a list of enemies based on where they're born is insane. Being born on the same patch of dirt doesn't mean I have anything to do with you.
Re:World War II 'rumor clinics' helped America battle wild g... by margalabargala on Wednesday March 06, 2024 @11:56AM (#39617951)
This is a remarkably uncharitable reading of the comment you replied to.

The person was pretty clearly talking in the past tense about WWII, not claiming that anyone is your enemy now.

Whether you like it or not, being born on a particular patch of dirt means that you are in fact part of the shared history of people born on that patch of dirt, which includes having had the Germans as enemies at one or two points in the past.

Re:World War II 'rumor clinics' helped America battle wild g... by briantakita on Wednesday March 06, 2024 @11:39AM (#39617736)
> The Anglophone world has negative connotations for the word 'propaganda' purely because our enemies used that word more than us.

Who is "our" & "us"? If it's not me, am I "the enemy"?

Re:World War II 'rumor clinics' helped America battle wild g... by panzagl on Wednesday March 06, 2024 @11:43AM (#39617787)
The Anglophone world is "our" and "us". Since our enemies "used" that word, you are only one if you also live in the past tense.
Re:World War II 'rumor clinics' helped America battle wild g... by briantakita on Wednesday March 06, 2024 @03:37PM (#39621085)
> Since our enemies "used" that word, you are only one if you also live in the past tense.

Kindof like the English speaking people of Japanese descent in the Western US circa 1940. Stripped of their property & sent to internment camps. I hope history does not repeat itself in present & future "propagation" efforts. But hope & reality are two different things.

I would love to meet the "we" or "us" that is doing the propaganda. To propagate what I think about their efforts of course.

Re:World War II 'rumor clinics' helped America battle wild g... by supperrtadderr on Wednesday March 06, 2024 @06:00PM (#39622861)
Goebbels was literally the Minister of Propaganda lol
Re:World War II 'rumor clinics' helped America battle wild g... by diggan on Wednesday March 06, 2024 @11:17AM (#39617464)
> An interesting article for sure. There were all kinds of things done by the various nations during the war to control the information available to the populous and to try and influence their beliefs.

It's interesting to me that you said "were" instead of "is", we're still seeing exactly the same things played out today (by all nations, not just the "bad" guys), although it doesn't feel like much is being done to fight it, compared to what was outlined in the article.

Re:World War II 'rumor clinics' helped America battle wild g... by WesleyLivesay on Wednesday March 06, 2024 @11:22AM (#39617528)
Absolutely still happening, I used past tense to refer to the exact events discussed in the article (newspapers printing anti-rumor columns)
Re:World War II 'rumor clinics' helped America battle wild g... by kouru225 on Wednesday March 06, 2024 @11:21AM (#39617521)
All PR used to be called propaganda. Now it’s a dirty word. The father of PR, Edward Bernays, quite literally wrote a book about what his job was called “Propaganda.”
Re:World War II 'rumor clinics' helped America battle wild g... by subtra3t on Wednesday March 06, 2024 @11:22AM (#39617533)
Is the book worth reading, for an average lurker of HN?
Re:World War II 'rumor clinics' helped America battle wild g... by walthamstow on Wednesday March 06, 2024 @11:36AM (#39617688)
More interesting is the Adam Curtis documentary about Bernays, The Century of the Self.
Re:World War II 'rumor clinics' helped America battle wild g... by kouru225 on Wednesday March 06, 2024 @01:31PM (#39619271)
Agreed
Re:World War II 'rumor clinics' helped America battle wild g... by AnimalMuppet on Wednesday March 06, 2024 @11:19AM (#39617486)
To me, this looks more like snopes than propaganda. I mean, I'm sure it was snopes-in-service-of-the-war-effort, but it still seems different.

Or maybe we could call it negative propaganda ("don't believe that") rather than positive propaganda ("believe this").

Re:World War II 'rumor clinics' helped America battle wild g... by trimethylpurine on Wednesday March 06, 2024 @12:56PM (#39618726)
>more like snopes than propaganda

Aren't those the same thing? An opinion piece about a set of facts is still an opinion. Snopes largely covers political topics. Combined, that's definition propaganda.

Re:World War II 'rumor clinics' helped America battle wild g... by Aunche on Wednesday March 06, 2024 @01:26PM (#39619170)
Snopes at least seems to try to not have an agenda, even if they may be ideologically biased. The rumor clinics had an expressed interest of supporting America during WWII, so I'd consider it propaganda, but that shouldn't come with a negative connotation.
Re:World War II 'rumor clinics' helped America battle wild g... by not_really on Thursday March 07, 2024 @09:19AM (#39629361)
Snopes absolutely does have an agenda.
Re:World War II 'rumor clinics' helped America battle wild g... by shadowgovt on Wednesday March 06, 2024 @11:18AM (#39617481)
It's also worth noting that it's, in this case, grassroots propaganda. I don't doubt some of the newspapers had back-channels to what the War Department wanted reported or withheld, but the distributed nature of the activity and the apparent desire of the activists not to toe a party line, but pursue the truth, is worth observing. People who think of structures of control as centralized often miss how a specific meme (be it pursuing the truth, defending democracy, or claiming the legacy of the Aryan people) can act as an organizing tool for a decentralized network of supporters and control nodes.

In essence, systems like that survive not on the strength of the king but on the willingness of the people to follow him.

Re:World War II 'rumor clinics' helped America battle wild g... by 2OEH8eoCRo0 on Wednesday March 06, 2024 @11:20AM (#39617500)
Is fighting fiction with fact really propaganda?
Re:World War II 'rumor clinics' helped America battle wild g... by WesleyLivesay on Wednesday March 06, 2024 @11:25AM (#39617560)
I think this ties into the negative connotation I mentioned: propaganda does not have to be false, it just has to be biased.

One thing I noticed in the article was that all of the rumors being discussed were negative rumors. The goal was to take rumors that might bring down morale and "set them right". I wonder if positive rumors were treated the same way.

Re:World War II 'rumor clinics' helped America battle wild g... by doktrin on Wednesday March 06, 2024 @11:58AM (#39617975)
Technically true, but popular connotation matters, and in this case I’d argue it matters more than the dictionary definition.

It’s a bit like “racism” : I honestly have no idea if the current academic definition is “prejudice + power” or just “prejudice” - but to a significant extent it doesn’t really matter since the common understanding is the one that matters when communicating.

Re:World War II 'rumor clinics' helped America battle wild g... by ochoseis on Wednesday March 06, 2024 @11:23AM (#39617537)
In reality, it’s often cherry-picked facts fighting each other.
Re:World War II 'rumor clinics' helped America battle wild g... by simpletone on Wednesday March 06, 2024 @12:07PM (#39618102)
Yes. Facts are often used as propaganda and in fact can serve as the most potent form of propaganda because they often lack context and humanity. The rise of science and statistics in the 20th century was accompanied by the most racist and evil regimes for a reason.

Most of the genocides, eugenics, racism, etc of the US, Britain and Germany in the 20th century was pushed by progressives wielding facts and science as blunt instruments.

Re:World War II 'rumor clinics' helped America battle wild g... by whatshisface on Wednesday March 06, 2024 @01:13PM (#39618991)
...mixed with a large part of fiction, because genocidal movements are corrupt well beyond the "power of science."
Re:World War II 'rumor clinics' helped America battle wild g... by simpletone on Wednesday March 06, 2024 @01:34PM (#39619308)
> because genocidal movements are corrupt well beyond the "power of science."

Science was central to the genocidal movements in the US and Germany. In many ways, science was the cause of the genocidal movements. Eugenics was a scientific movement championed by scientists. What changed wasn't science. It was culture and politics that changed. The horrors of the 20th century led philosphers, politicians and ordinary citizens to lose their blind faith and trust in science and progress.

The rise of science and social darwinism of the early 1900s is similar to rise of AI and technocracy. Hopefully we won't as foolish to place blind trust on it and history doesn't repeat itself.

Re:World War II 'rumor clinics' helped America battle wild g... by DinaCoder99 on Wednesday March 06, 2024 @11:39AM (#39617727)
I'm sure that's how literally everyone wants you to view their propaganda.
Re:World War II 'rumor clinics' helped America battle wild g... by Andrex on Wednesday March 06, 2024 @11:23AM (#39617538)
Facts can be paired with other facts in a way deliberately designed to mislead.
Re:World War II 'rumor clinics' helped America battle wild g... by 2OEH8eoCRo0 on Wednesday March 06, 2024 @11:24AM (#39617545)
That's true but I think it's disingenuous to say that countering enemy propaganda must also be propaganda. It doesn't have to be.
Re:World War II 'rumor clinics' helped America battle wild g... by DinaCoder99 on Wednesday March 06, 2024 @11:41AM (#39617760)
Nobody is forcing you to call it anything—you could just as easily call it "marketing" or "news". Anyway, "fact" is a convenient fantasy in most cases when you actually mean "strong belief grounded in sources you trust".
Re:World War II 'rumor clinics' helped America battle wild g... by 2OEH8eoCRo0 on Wednesday March 06, 2024 @11:50AM (#39617871)
Words are all the same or meaningless and there is no truth or facts? Thanks for imparting some wisdom comrade.
Re:World War II 'rumor clinics' helped America battle wild g... by DinaCoder99 on Wednesday March 06, 2024 @11:59PM (#39625196)
I think that "strong belief grounded in degrees of trust" is a much more powerful concept than "fact" in practice, not to mention one that's much more difficult to attack from a theory of knowledge perspective especially in a post-Wittgenstein world, but I understand why this is such a controversial concept when there's such a focus on folks actively undermining this.