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Re:Scientists find genetic signature of Down syndrome in anc... by asveikau on Wednesday February 28, 2024 @07:26PM (#39545233)
The article says it sheds light on how people with Downs were treated but doesn't really explain that.

The comments on NYT for this article are good. I had a hunch people who had experience caring for such children would show up in the comments, and probably be moving.

Re:Scientists find genetic signature of Down syndrome in anc... by stevenwoo on Wednesday February 28, 2024 @08:13PM (#39545525)
The only thing I picked up was that in an area and time where the dead were usually cremated, they left the corpses of the ones with Downs intact with accompanying jewelry as far as we can tell, so there was something special with that treatment - it's just hard to get information about the why and it's a very small number in just one culture/area.
Re:Scientists find genetic signature of Down syndrome in anc... by rpmisms on Wednesday February 28, 2024 @08:23PM (#39545579)
At a guess, it's because they had to take special care of them, and that was significant for obvious reasons. Cousin Grug who just works is less special than the sweet baby who needs attention all the time.
Re:Scientists find genetic signature of Down syndrome in anc... by pvg on Wednesday February 28, 2024 @07:38PM (#39545312)
It doesn't say that, it says it might shed light i.e. remains with the condition can now be identified which may over time tell us more about how such people were treated.
Re:Scientists find genetic signature of Down syndrome in anc... by asveikau on Wednesday February 28, 2024 @07:54PM (#39545408)
Right next to the headline it says:

> The discovery may help shed light on how prehistoric societies treated children with rare conditions.

I apologize if I mis-summarized that, but this is what I was trying to convey.. Some commenters there said similar things to what I did. The sub heading feels like bait and switch.

I guess "may" is doing a lot here... Like you said, a future hope based on a new ability to identify.

Re:Scientists find genetic signature of Down syndrome in anc... by LoganDark on Wednesday February 28, 2024 @08:36PM (#39545662)
It's obvious the way they were treated was through death. I can't imagine historical societies wouldn't immediately kill someone who was obviously so different than the masses. I mean, weren't those societies the same ones who would burn suspected witches at the stake?
Re:Scientists find genetic signature of Down syndrome in anc... by flextheruler on Wednesday February 28, 2024 @10:40PM (#39546186)
Assuredly that was how most were treated. The well preserved remains we find are so usually because of two cases

1) environmental such as cold or swamp preserved them

2) burial preservation which would indicate they were children of those with wealth and status

Obviously these remains if they were buried with jewelry were likely the ancient equivalent of nobility.

Re:Scientists find genetic signature of Down syndrome in anc... by plorg on Wednesday February 28, 2024 @09:18PM (#39545864)
The witch burning garbage happened within the last 500 years. That's way closer to today than the 5000 years ago we're talking about. And this seems very culturally dependent.
Re:Scientists find genetic signature of Down syndrome in anc... by LoganDark on Thursday February 29, 2024 @01:08AM (#39546790)
Xenophobia dates back way further than that and is even still an issue today (see transphobia)
Re:Scientists find genetic signature of Down syndrome in anc... by allendoerfer on Thursday February 29, 2024 @02:11AM (#39547060)
I hope you are not elevating these two topics to the same level. The way we treat trans person in the West is wildly better. Unimaginably better even (see holocaust).
Re:Scientists find genetic signature of Down syndrome in anc... by wizzwizz4 on Thursday February 29, 2024 @08:49AM (#39549232)
The Opernplatz book burning was the destruction of the archives of the Institut für Sexualwissenschaft, which was basically the research centre for trans and intersex people. Plenty of people were persecuted in the Holocaust:

> Als Pastor Niemöller ins Konzentrationslager kam, schrieben wir 1937, als das Konzentrationslager aufgemacht wurde, da schrieben wir 1933, und die damals in die Konzentrationslager kamen, waren Kommunisten. Wer hat sich darum gekümmert? Wir haben es gewußt, es stand in den Zeitungen. Wer hat die Stimme erhoben, etwa die Bekennende Kirche? Wir haben gedacht: Kommunisten, diese Religionsgegner, diese Christenfeinde - "soll ich meines Bruders Hüter sein?" Dann hat man die Kranken, die sogenannten Unheilbaren beseitigt. - Ich erinnere mich eines Gespräches mit einem Menschen, der Anspruch darauf erhob, ein Christ zu sein. Er meinte: Vielleicht ist es ganz richtig, diese unheibaren Menschen kosten den Staat nur Geld, sie sind sich und den andern nur zur Last. Ist es nicht das Beste für alle Teile, wenn man sie aus der Mitte schafft? -- Dann erst ist es an die Kirche als solche herangekommen. Dann haben wir einen Ton geredet, bis er dann in der Öffentlichkeit wieder verstummt ist. Können wir sagen, wir sind nicht schuld? Die Judenverfolgung, die Art und Weise, wie wir die besetzten Länder behandelten, oder die Dinge in Griechenland, in Polen, in der Tschechoslowakei oder in Holland, die doch in der Zeitung gestanden haben. …

Let's… not get into this? It's not the Oppression Olympics, and this has nothing to do with the article.

Re:Scientists find genetic signature of Down syndrome in anc... by plorg on Thursday February 29, 2024 @08:44AM (#39549178)
Yes all this prejudicial junk is bad, and these attitudes still exist. It doesn't make sense to apply "shit bad, yo" to all of human civilization 5000 years ago and say, based only on those vibes, that there was a particular way that certain people were treated. You have to make too many assumptions.
Re:Scientists find genetic signature of Down syndrome in anc... by asveikau on Wednesday February 28, 2024 @09:08PM (#39545814)
Did you read the article? It says they were buried with jewelry, in a location where they usually cremated people. That suggests they were revered in some way.
Re:Scientists find genetic signature of Down syndrome in anc... by red75prime on Thursday February 29, 2024 @12:33AM (#39546652)
This indicates they were singled out. Was it reverence or an offering to the gods to prevent repetition (or maybe a combination of both) is anyone's guess.
Re:Scientists find genetic signature of Down syndrome in anc... by Daub on Thursday February 29, 2024 @03:07AM (#39547344)
Anyone who has worked or lived with down syndrome people know that they are indeed special: empathetic to a fault and intensely social.

https://adscresources.advocatehealth.com/social-sensitivity/....

Re:Scientists find genetic signature of Down syndrome in anc... by GordonS on Thursday February 29, 2024 @04:40AM (#39547865)
Anyone who has actually worked or lived with people with Down's Syndrome knows that's an unrealistic stereotype.

People with Down's are have individual personalities, just like anyone else.

My daughter has Down's, so we're familiar with several other people with Down's (through support groups, sport groups etc). I can assure you, they are all very different, and this idea that everyone with Down's is happy and smiley all the time needs to die.

Re:Scientists find genetic signature of Down syndrome in anc... by Daub on Thursday February 29, 2024 @09:37AM (#39549831)
I respect your experience with yourvdaughter. I absolutely did not mean to two-dimensionalise anyone with downs and apologize if I gave such impression.

However, i speak from experaince having lived with many down syndrome kids for many years. Though they were all manifestly and clearly individuals, there was also a commonality between them. Check out the academic studies in the link I shared which supports this impression.

THe link between selfhood (if I may term it such) and the body is something that has been discussed for centuries, with most of that discussion being mumbo jumbo (eg the four temprements). But there does seem to be some mechanism at work. I know that Crohn's disease and Celiac disease are both associated with certain personalitytypes. That's not to say that there condition defines who they are, rather it informs it.

Re:Scientists find genetic signature of Down syndrome in anc... by asveikau on Thursday February 29, 2024 @01:32PM (#39553119)
> I know that Crohn's disease and Celiac disease are both associated with certain personalitytypes.

Off topic, but I hadn't heard much of this. Do you have sources?

I googled. Here's one interesting thing I found: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4814534/

I found claims of correlation with stress and anxiety (seems kind of obvious), and type D personalities (a categorization I've never heard of before, but seemingly includes negativity, hostility, suppressed anger).

It seems hard to me to ascertain whether these are a cause of illness, a reaction to illness, maybe even a vicious-cycle type of reaction that serves to make the illness worse ... Or just correlation. One factor among many. A rut that people fall in. Maybe all of this.

Re:Scientists find genetic signature of Down syndrome in anc... by Daub on Thursday February 29, 2024 @08:39PM (#39557522)
> Off topic, but I hadn't heard much of this. Do you have sources?

I have no other sources apart from anecdotes from a childhood friend with Celiac. He claimed that it was common knowledge in the Celiac community. I did the same search that you likely did and there seems to be some supporting evidence for such association.

> Or just correlation. One factor among many. A rut that people fall in. Maybe all of this.

I think this likely accounts for much condition-associated personality behavior, but not all.

A few years ago I was diagnosed with Ehlers Danlos. Shortly after I stumbled across this: https://www.ehlers-danlos.com/2017-eds-classification-non-ex...

Of course, the pain of Ehlers will inevitable impact upon personality, that is obvious (fortunately my pain is manageable). But also mentioned is this:

> The underlying mechanisms include genetic risks, problems with the automatic control of body functions, sensitivity to external and internal stimuli, and decreased sense of position. Recent studies have also shown an increase response in emotion processing brain areas which could explain the high emotional reactivity.

'Decreased sense of position' seems so odd and specific and something I clearly recognize in myself.

Re:Scientists find genetic signature of Down syndrome in anc... by LoganDark on Thursday February 29, 2024 @04:35PM (#39555468)
> THe link between selfhood (if I may term it such) and the body is something that has been discussed for centuries

I know plenty of people who don't identify with their body at all.

Re:Scientists find genetic signature of Down syndrome in anc... by Daub on Thursday February 29, 2024 @09:01PM (#39557677)
I don't think it is a issue of 'identifying with their body' rather than a situation where the body and the self inform each other.

The ancient temperamental model assumed that the human body is a mix of Choleric (fire), Sanguine (blood), Phlegmatic (phlegm), and Melancholy. These categories were also assumed to be temperamental architypes whereby (for example) an excess of blood leads to an angry (Choleric) personality.

Of course this is bollocks, but nonetheless demonstrates my point. The idea that 'who we are' is something that is defined only by our brain is wrong. Brain/body traffic seems to be two-way: physical trauma to the body can impact the brain, the nervous system of the digestive tract can impact our moods, lack of vitamin D can negatively impact our emotional outlook, male infant circumcision can alter adult socio-affective processing etc etc.

Re:Scientists find genetic signature of Down syndrome in anc... by LoganDark on Thursday February 29, 2024 @09:55PM (#39558039)
Ah, so you're talking about how the CNS is sort of part of the brain. That's valid, I think.
Re:Scientists find genetic signature of Down syndrome in anc... by solumunus on Thursday February 29, 2024 @04:44AM (#39547878)
Human empathy is not a new thing. The behavior you describe would be entirely dependent on culture. You could easily imagine a culture where people with down syndrome were venerated as a gift from the gods. Outside of these extremes it's entirely plausible that members of the tribe who needed to be looked after were simply looked after. Your imagination of all historical societies as entirely savage is incredibly reductive.
Re:Scientists find genetic signature of Down syndrome in anc... by concordDance on Thursday February 29, 2024 @08:25AM (#39548983)
> The comments on NYT for this article are good. I had a hunch people who had experience caring for such children would show up in the comments, and probably be moving.

Note the heavy sampling bias here. Someone who is struggling to cope and secretly hates their "burden" probably won't want to comment.