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Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by codedokode on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @05:09PM (#39530805)
> As a result, Nintendo ... is demanding that the Yuzu emulator is shut down.

When corporations like Uber violate multiple laws, do they get shut down? When Amazon treats its employees poorly, does it get shut down? When Google forbids manufacturers to pre-install competitor apps, does it get shut down? Well, it seems that as long as copyright is not infringed, everything is ok.

Also it seems to me that Nintendo might themselves violate antitrust laws by using their monopoly power on market of Nintendo-compatible games, and not allowing enough competition there.

Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by justinclift on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @05:52PM (#39531297)
Yeah, it's a pretty stark illustration of "we have enough money to fuck you up, and are very willing to do so". "Might makes right" in action.

Your monopoly point is an interesting one. Wonder if there's an actual legal case there, as Nintendo have done a lot of this bullying over the years.

Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by mattmaroon on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @06:21PM (#39531590)
No, there isn’t. Companies choose to put games on Nintendo, many games are available on multiple consoles including Nintendo, and depending on the generation Nintendo is not even always the biggest player. There’s no illegal monopoly.

One is certainly allowed to have a monopoly over their own products, that’s what trademarks and patents are for.

It’s hard to argue a game developer is forced to play ball with Nintendo.

Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by roughly on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @07:24PM (#39532225)
Why does this logic fall down for Apple? Is it size? Is the argument different if it were Microsoft doing similar with XBox?
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by mattmaroon on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @09:24PM (#39533145)
Well, Apple is part of a duopoly. Nintendo is not. It’s kind of silly to call somebody a monopolist when they only have a small percentage of market share. In fact, they aren’t even in the top three video game companies, and their hardware is just a reason to sell software. 85% of the revenue comes from first party games. Their revenue is less than 10% of the entire gaming industry. For some reason, people insist on thinking of them as a hardware company that also makes games, when the reality has been the reverse for decades.

There are a whole lot of ways to distribute a video game. Three major consoles. Computers. Things like the steam deck. Smart phones. You could ignore any one or two of them, and still have a great business. In fact, lots of companies do. A whole lot of people have access to more than one of these platforms. You could ignore anyone or two of these platforms, and still sell your product to most of the people in the market. It is a highly competitive environment. If you don’t like Nintendo’s policies, just sell on Xbox and PlayStation and steam. People do this. If an environment is competitive, then by definition, nobody has a monopoly or an unfair advantage.

The Earth has 8 billion people, most of whom have a smart phone, all of which are using one of two operating systems. Not many people have more than one. If Apple says your app cannot be in their App Store, half of humanity, cannot use your app. It is a much different scenario.

Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by dheera on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @06:35PM (#39531736)
I'd love to start a country with no extradition treaties that is a safe harbor for companies like this.
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by Analemma_ on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @06:39PM (#39531795)
If you don't agree to a bunch of treaties around IP protection, you will find yourself frozen out of many free trade agreements and mostly unable to import or export anything except at crushing cost.
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by thejazzman on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @06:46PM (#39531843)
Better just use China then
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by Analemma_ on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @06:51PM (#39531905)
I mean, sure, but the parent comment sort of implied they were looking to make a ancap libertarian paradise, which China most certainly is not.
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by bossyTeacher on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @06:47PM (#39531863)
You will find yourself commercially isolated and therefore unable to run anything and therefore likely to suffer an invasion by any other nation.
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by Kranar on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @05:59PM (#39531370)
There were tons and TONS of ride sharing apps that got shut down as Uber was becoming popular due to regulatory violations: Sidecar, Juno, Poparide, Heetch, Taxify, and there are probably hundreds that got shut down in local markets.

Plenty of companies get shut down for regulatory violations, or employee mistreatment. Pointing at some extreme outliers is nothing more than a form of selection bias.

Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by fcsp on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @06:17PM (#39531555)
Why didn't Uber though? Is it just enough money to buy the right lobbyists and lawyers?
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by fnimick on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @06:21PM (#39531598)
And enough usage in the general public to have "politician X will ban uber" be a negative campaign position.

Same reason AirBnB works despite many laws to the contrary. If you get popular enough that the public will vote against people who threaten to enforce the law, out of a desire to keep using the product, you win. It's a race to get too big to be shut down.

Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by bobthepanda on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @07:25PM (#39532238)
AirBnB's major achilles heel is that it actually isn't popular.

It is popular with tourists, who don't vote in the jurisdictions they visit, and it is popular with some landlords, who are a small minority that generally the renting public have at best indifference and often hatred for. It is very unpopular among renters who now see supply taken off long-term rental market; and it is very unpopular among other homeowners who do not want to live next to hotels.

It is not really a surprise that major tourist destinations are now slapping AirBnB with all kinds of restrictions.

Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by fcsp on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @07:07PM (#39532057)
Oh yeah, enough usage, which is another thing to throw capital at beyond lawyers and lobbyists. Tough to not get cynical sometimes.
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by throwaway237289 on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @06:41PM (#39531812)
There's something hilarious about your framing of "get too big to be shut down".

You actually said "if you get popular enough that the public will vote against people who threaten to enforce the law".

So someone builds a product that the public likes, something they demand that politicians allow, and somehow this is "too big to be shut down". Do you forget that modern democracies pretend that their authority derives from the will of the people?

The law is not sacred. Get off your high horse.

Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by manquer on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @06:54PM (#39531933)
Modern ( and ancient) democracies are not direct democracies.

There are many reasons why popularity alone of the voting public does not translate into policy. The dangers of tyranny of the majority is well known, will of the people is a necessary but not sufficient reason.

There are also some pre-requisites for a functioning democracy like a well-informed electorate which is questionable today at best.

Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by SllX on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @07:22PM (#39532207)
You are correct, but so is the parent (although I wouldn’t have put it quite like that).

Laws are there to serve society. Some of the ways it serves society is when it restrains society, but people are not stupid and understand when they’re being unreasonably restrained. Unreasonably being the key word, as I’d like to think we’re all generally anti-murder around here, even if we can argue to death about things like AirBnB.

Let me put it like this: the laws of San Francisco (and other cities) protected Taxi drivers from competition, and by the late aughts the local taxi services here were godawful magnets for complaints every weekend that the relevant regulatory authority (the SFMTA) didn’t do a goddamned thing about. If you wanted to go out and enjoy a nice weekend night, the responsible thing was not to drive. But good luck getting home, and if you could get a cab, it would be filthy and the driver would unlawfully insist his card reader was broken (it wasn’t, and it never was, the card reader was probably the most reliable thing in that car given how little wear and tear it would have seen in life).

Uber didn’t walk into a well regulated transportation marketplace. They and Lyft drove headfirst into a marketplace where the existing laws and regulations were suppressing supply and killing the market, and not in service of the passengers (i.e. the voters). They won the battles that mattered which were the political battle by upending a status quo that had favored this shitty little taxi medallion system and the market battle by just being better at a price people were willing to pay than their competition.

Popularity doesn’t always translate to policy in a democracy, but it often does.

Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by fnimick on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @07:58PM (#39532522)
While I agree taxi regulation was done badly, effectively removing all regulation I don't think is the answer. There are huge negative externalities to people who are neither drivers nor riders that should be protected by the law as much as the 'customers' wishes are. (just like the airbnb example, imagine someone cycling in a busy commercial area dodging uber drop-offs throwing open doors, double parking, etc)
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by SllX on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @09:49PM (#39533322)
The environmental hazards to cyclists are far beyond any extra danger Uber and Lyft provide and they lose to more popular constituencies regularly because most people in America even in the cities are not cyclists and often resent cyclists.

We prioritized cars a long time ago, and we’re still paying for it. I’m not happy about that fact either. You can absolutely argue that cyclists are victims to a tyranny by majority much as I can argue that that the presence of Uber and Lyft is a net benefit versus the status quo that existed prior to their coming onto the scene, and I’ll just say both things can be true. People also lose in democracies.

Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by B1FF_PSUVM on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @07:16PM (#39532143)
> The law is not sacred. Get off your high horse.

OK, let's take a vote to take your stuff and share it around.

Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by ptelomere on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @07:18PM (#39532156)
Because competition is bad for business (good for customers for sure), but I repeat, BAD for business.

Why would you want 10 companies competing, bet your investment in one, or "spread it" like a loser, when you can pool ALL your money and make sure ALL the profit accumulates into one giant enormous company ?

Uber in this case happens to be the company chosen for big money.

Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by bossyTeacher on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @06:52PM (#39531909)
Read the Uber Files. Uber is on record for lobbying the most powerful governments on Earth. Macron for example was on first name terms with Uber. Also, Uber had systems to prevent the police from seeing incriminating data during police raids.

Basically, Uber had powerful allies and was willing to do illegal things. That's the difference between Uber and the other apps that got shut down for breaking the law

Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by fcsp on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @07:12PM (#39532108)
And yet, it took them a veeeery long time and a looot of money to post a quarter profit, not to mention making up for all the outside investment
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by bossyTeacher on Wednesday February 28, 2024 @06:53AM (#39536729)
Remember had moonshots to justify their high valuation. The self driving car division was one and the self driving trucks was another one. Those things were veeeeeery expensive to run
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by xtracto on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @06:49PM (#39531879)
Uber got successfully shot down in my city in Campeche Mexico [1]. Mostly due to corruption between government and taxi owners. But hey, it's possible!.

[1] https://www.theyucatantimes.com/2022/01/uber-could-be-return...

Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by justinclift on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @11:32PM (#39534028)
It's like that joke. Something about an honest politician being one who stays bought after you've given them money.
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by accurrent on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @10:55PM (#39533781)
The issue is large corporations tend to go unharmed.This is in part because of the fallout from people loosing there jobs. Imagine all of google or uber getting fired. How many people loose livelihoods.
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by extheat on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @05:52PM (#39531291)
Anyone can sue anyone for any reason at any time. Unless the lawsuit is in bad faith and meritless (only a court can make that determination), there is no argument to be had about "lawfare". The only difference here and in other companies is that Nintendo actually follows through with their legal threats instead of just filing complaints they don't intend to take to court.
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by acyou on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @06:05PM (#39531433)
If we don't like companies abusing their power, we can complain and decide not to buy the products of companies doing that sort of thing, and support their competitors. There's only so far courts takes you, for a consumer company the real trial is most definitely in the public court of opinion.
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by jojobas on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @06:19PM (#39531571)
I can't see their user base (or should I say fans?) caring about some cheap-ass emulator crowd. Nintendo's cash cow is people who buy consoles, games and accessories for thousands bucks, not tinkerers. More general public (i.e. moms looking for kids' presents) wouldn't give to shits about any legal buggery either.
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by rymiel on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @07:19PM (#39532167)
The determination by the "court" doesn't really matter here. The party with the bigger wallet wins, "bad faith" doesn't mean anything.
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by filleduchaos on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @06:28PM (#39531671)
> Also it seems to me that Nintendo might themselves violate antitrust laws by using their monopoly power on market of Nintendo-compatible games, and not allowing enough competition there.

Nintendo is being a bully here, but what on earth does a monopoly on the market of your own platform even mean?

Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by devit on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @06:54PM (#39531929)
- Nintendo Switch hardware only runs Nintendo Switch OS -> Nintendo monopoly on Switch OSes

- Nintendo Switch OS only runs on Nintendo Switch hardware -> Nintendo monopoly on Switch OS hardware

- Nintendo Switch hardware and OS only run officially licensed Nintendo game -> Nintendo monopoly on games for Nintendo Switch and OS games

- Nintendo Switch games only run on Nintendo Switch -> Nintendo monopoly on hardware that runs Switch games

(Apple and iPhone are in the same situation)

Compare to the situation with Windows:

- x86 hardware can run any OS, including Linux and Windows -> mostly no Microsoft monopoly, although Windows and Microsoft keys are often pre-installed

- Windows can run on any x86 hardware (and ARM I think?) -> no Microsoft monopoly, although they don't release source to port to other CPU architectures

- Windows can run any software from anyone at no charge -> mostly no Microsoft monopoly, although they can favor their own software

- Windows software can run on any OS, such as Windows or Linux with Wine -> mostly no Microsoft monopoly, although one can argue that having an OS API without an open-source implementation induces lock-in and creates a partial monopoly

Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by enriquec on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @07:11PM (#39532095)
you don't know what a monopoly is
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by devit on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @08:28PM (#39532741)
Monopoly = you can get a given thing or something equivalent to it only from one producer
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by filleduchaos on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @07:22PM (#39532209)
I am genuinely asking, what on earth do y'all think "monopoly" and "anti-trust" mean?

It's baffling to me because some users on HN grandstand so much about how making your own product or platform means that you are morally obligated to support any and every third party under the sun. But then the actual tech industry seems to be the direct opposite - if anything companies make lots of fanfare out of achieving basic interop.

Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by hraedon on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @06:39PM (#39531793)
This is the theory that people (on HN and elsewhere) have used to argue that Apple's App Store represents a monopoly that should be broken up. It makes no more sense here than it does in that context.
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by zacmps on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @07:11PM (#39532096)
It absolutely makes sense viewed through the lens of early 2000s antitrust cases (esp. those against Microsoft).

The landscape has obviously changed since, but not for any good reason in my opinion.

Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by datbn on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @06:31PM (#39531704)
This is not a case of a company that does something massively useful but then does a (relatively to the size of the company) small illegal thing on the side. The whole raison d'etre of Tropic Haze LLC is to, allegedly, break the law.
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by justinclift on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @11:34PM (#39534050)
Are you saying console emulation is only used for breaking the law?
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by datbn on Wednesday February 28, 2024 @05:27AM (#39536204)
The DMCA says it's illegal to bypass DRM schemes based on encryption. Yuzu needs to do that to function. Therefore, Yuzu breaks the DMCA.

But, we'll see what the judge says.

Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by justinclift on Wednesday February 28, 2024 @10:03AM (#39538822)
Meanwhile, fair use is also a thing. I'm not real clear on where that illegality of bypassing DRM schemes fits in with that, and also how it fits in with other laws and exceptions.

So yeah, it'll be interesting to see what the judge says. :)

Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by magnetowasright on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @06:09PM (#39531482)
Hey, let's be fair; those copyright infringement laws also only protect corporations!
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by ambigious7777 on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @05:42PM (#39531186)
Man, the US copyright system is broken :^(
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by thomastjeffery on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @07:36PM (#39532342)
Monopoly is literally the point of copyright. That's its explicit purpose.

Their entire case rests on the presumption that the DMCA protects Nintendo's monopoly over not only distribution, but playback of its console game software.

Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by bossyTeacher on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @06:46PM (#39531851)
Welcome to the real world. Either you are powerful enough to change the law or you have to follow whatever law exists
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by earthwalker99 on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @06:16PM (#39531546)
The definition of capitalism is literally a system of economic relations that prioritizes the right to leverage one's existing capital to accumulate more capital, above everything else and indefinitely.