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Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by johnny99k on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @04:39PM (#39530355)
This won't matter. The goal will be to run them out of money. It's an open source project and they most likely don't have the capital to fund any sort of lengthy lawsuit.
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by teeray on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @05:02PM (#39530720)
I really wish our system had some kind of financial handicap when it came to access to the legal system. Weaponizing the legal system to bankrupt people that would be found Not Guilty shouldn't be possible.
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by jrockway on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @05:53PM (#39531305)
The legal system has sort of recognized this as a problem, which is why many states have anti-SLAPP lawsuits. Unfortunately, I don't think this strictly falls under the definition of "public participation", so there is no protection available. (And, big companies just try to sue you in federal court or states with no anti-SLAPP lawsuits. So anti-SLAPP is not the big victory it should have been.)
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by kmeisthax on Wednesday February 28, 2024 @12:52AM (#39534524)
An anti-SLAPP law usually works by giving you a special motion that lets you say "hey, I think this is a SLAPP lawsuit", which basically gives you access to fee shifting (making the loser pay the winner's legal fees). Copyright already has this built in.

Which is great news... for Nintendo.

The problem that Nintendo is citing in their lawsuit is the fact that Yuzu ships Switch common keys. For the purpose of DMCA 1201, this is a smoking gun[0]. There isn't really a good legal argument for why emulators should be allowed to ship decryption keys, or at least, the EFF refused to come up with one when Dolphin asked for legal advice on this point a while ago. So if you go to court and provide a completely legally baseless argument, Nintendo wins, and then they move for fee shifting, which means they get to prosecute the case for free[1].

[0] While it is true that the scope of DMCA 1201 is far wider than just encryption keys, in this case, Nintendo has only cited the keys being in the emulator and the fact that Yuzu is really useful for running pirated software, which is "good enough".

[1] In practice, it's more "for cheap" than "for free", because there's specific rules about how much you're allowed to fee shift, a whole bunch of stuff about 'lodestar amounts', etc.

Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by belthesar on Wednesday February 28, 2024 @10:44AM (#39539436)
That's the thing though, Yuzu doesn't ship with the common keys. Yuzu's quick start guide provides clear instructions for how to root a physical switch and dump the keys from the device, but it doesn't ship with the keys itself. What Nintendo is alleging is that providing the instructions to dump the keys is equivalent to providing them itself.
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by kmeisthax on Wednesday February 28, 2024 @02:09PM (#39542318)
Yeah, sorry, I misread Nintendo's legal complaint.

That being said, I don't think two layers of indirection help Yuzu. It's one thing to say "this requires decryption keys and you have to rip your own games", and another to say "and here's where and how you get those things".

Put it this way: You know how emulator developers are very strict about not providing ROMs for obvious reasons? The decryption keys work the same way. If Yuzu had, say, linked to a ROM site and said "here's where you can get games for our emulator, wink wink nudge nudge", that'd be an open-and-shut case[0].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MGM_Studios,_Inc._v._Grokster,....

Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by apetresc on Wednesday February 28, 2024 @03:39PM (#39543182)
But Yuzu's instructions for getting decryption keys is for the correct, legal, way to do it. They're not linking to the sites where you can grab already-dumped keys - that would be the analogy to your example. The correct analogy would be if Yuzu told you how to dump your own ROMs - which is exactly what it does (and should do).
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by kmeisthax on Wednesday February 28, 2024 @06:10PM (#39544705)
I'm not convinced that even telling people how to dump their own keys is legal.

DMCA 1201 comes in two parts: a law that prohibits breaking DRM, and a law that prohibits telling people how to break DRM. If someone just had a Switch and somehow managed to figure out how to get the keys and games out of it, then ran them on an emulator, it'd probably be legal[0]. This is because the part of 1201 that makes it illegal to break DRM has shittons of escape valves that are designed to ensure that previously legal behavior doesn't suddenly become illegal just because you put a digital lock on it.

However, the part that prohibits trafficking in circumvention devices lacks any of these escape valves. I believe this to be by design. Congress wasn't willing to, say, reverse the Sony Betamax decision[1] and criminalize home video recording, but they were willing to allow Hollywood to slowly shut it down. A escape valve for circumvention would render the whole law ineffective: so long as someone has a legal right to break the DRM, you can sell it to anyone, not just people who can demonstrate they need it.

The legal standard for what constitutes a circumvention device is very broad. Specifically, something is a circumvention device if either:

- It's only function is to break DRM, or

- It's only commercially significant function is to break DRM (read: courts, ignore Betamax), or

- It's advertised to break DRM

That last one is the tricky bit. Let's say I took an ordinary HDMI-to-composite video adapter and put a sticker on it that said "Copy Netflix Originals Quick And Easy"[2]. Streaming boxes and Blu-Ray players support unencrypted output at legacy resolutions, so the video adapter breaks no DRM, it's just a DAC. But because I've advertised it as a way to strip DRM, I've broken the law by selling it.

So let's go back to our key dumping tool. Even if it's literally just a shell script for whatever the Switch equivalent of GodMode9 is, because it's being advertised as a way to copy games, it's just as illegal as putting the production Switch keys directly into Yuzu's source code. As an emulator developer, the only way to avoid liability under DMCA 1201 is to provide zero assistance to people who want to rip their games.

[0] This isn't court-tested, and probably never will, but prior attempts to argue against format-shifting in US courts haven't fared well.

[1] SCOTUS would do that later on with MGM v. Grokster. Remember: the reason why Sony was in hot water was specifically because they advertised Betamax as being good for pirating movies, not just that you could do so.

[2] In the world where Congress did include safety valves for 1201(a)(2), this sticker would probably say "Make Fair Use Commentaries On Netflix Originals Quick And Easy".

Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by kelseyfrog on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @05:14PM (#39530866)
I always wondered what would happen if litigants and defendants could contribute to a common legal fund which would equally fund their attorneys. It would at maximum make litigation twice as expensive which may be worth it alone.
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by theultdev on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @05:17PM (#39530897)
If it's twice as expensive then the defendants would run out of money sooner right?

You would have to somehow set a limit of legal expenses, which seems... difficult.

You would have to win to get the common fund, you may not get that far if you have to pay into the fund and amount a defense.

Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by kelseyfrog on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @05:28PM (#39531025)
There might be a miscommunication.

The litigants and defendants would not be compelled to contribute equal amounts. Just the disbursement would be equal.

Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by theultdev on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @05:29PM (#39531042)
Then why would the litigants contribute in the first place?

If nothing compels them to, they won't, so effectively the status quo.

Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by kelseyfrog on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @05:35PM (#39531111)
What I'm hearing is that it solves the problem of Nintendo being to outspend the defendant. If Nintendo brings a lawsuit and spends zero dollars on court cost, it should be rather easy for the defense to also contribute zero and the lawsuit is avoided. Problem solved.
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by theultdev on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @05:42PM (#39531180)
And if Nintendo spends $10 million dollars?

And Yuzu spends $25,000 and maybe wins the first case but runs out of money during the appeal and defaults judgment.

Nintendo gets the pot because they won right?

As I pointed out to another user, this reverses the damage if they win, but does not solve the problem of preventing them from being able to win.

Now if you make it where if you want to spend $5 on lawyer fees, you have to loan $5 to the other side and if the other side wins they don't have to pay it back, that may work.

Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by rcxdude on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @06:04PM (#39531424)
I think the proposal is not "each side contributes to a pot and the winner takes it", it's "if one side wants to spend 10mil on a case and the other side puts in 25k, then each side has 5mil and 12.5k to spend on legal fees"
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by kelseyfrog on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @06:55PM (#39531939)
Thank you. Correct, there is not "pot" where the winner takes all. The fund is simply and always split 50/50 towards lawyers and fees.
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by theultdev on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @06:22PM (#39531609)
Ah okay, if that's the case then yeah totally in support for that.

That's essentially what I was suggesting with having to loan the opposing team the same amount of money you spend.

Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by syockit on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @05:48PM (#39531253)
It would be harder for big corpo to sue laypeople, but at the same time harder for laypeople to sue corpo.
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by kelseyfrog on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @08:04PM (#39532558)
Would fewer, fairer lawsuits be a win?
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by causality0 on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @06:02PM (#39531408)
Losing a lawsuit should make you liable for the opponent's legal funds up to the same amount you spent on yours.
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by teeray on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @06:37PM (#39531775)
Yeah, but when cases take years you can run into cash flow issues, even if you might ultimately prevail.
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by scarby2 on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @07:30PM (#39532286)
this is how it works in a whole lot of places other than the USA
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by Solvency on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @05:31PM (#39531059)
Easy. The defendant and plaintiffs each hire and pay for lawyers they can or are willing to afford.

But all of that money goes into a prize pot, which gets distributed based on who wins the case.

This would ensure either Nintendo doesn't try to financially grind out a poor small company because the loss would not be worth it to them.

Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by theultdev on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @05:36PM (#39531122)
That doesn't solve grinding out the small company, though it does reverse the damage if they don't get ground out.

The problem is not the end payout, it's the base cost can't be afforded along the way.

One side can keep appealing and escalating, the other can't pay for the cases themselves.

They may not get far enough to win the pool.

You would have to have the lawyers work pro bono or some common legal fund pay for it until the case is won to get the pool.

As I pitched to another user, how about:

> for lawsuits, if you want to spend $5 on lawyer fees, you have to loan $5 to the other side.

> if the other side wins they don't have to pay back the loan.

Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by Panzer04 on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @06:54PM (#39531930)
The problem with that is you're ruined if you lose the court case. Few people would be willing to take on such a massive risk.
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by DANmode on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @08:47PM (#39532883)
Better be sure of the veracity your case before taking the court's time.
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by itsoktocry on Wednesday February 28, 2024 @05:46AM (#39536368)
>Weaponizing the legal system to bankrupt people that would be found Not Guilty shouldn't be possible.

They could open source and distribute the code in a decentralized manner. People could download, use and work on the software freely. The Pirate Bay is still going, based on these principles.

But if you're going to run a commercial enterprise based on what can at least be construed as enabling piracy, you're playing with fire and companies have the right to protect their IP in court.

Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by GabrielTFS on Wednesday February 28, 2024 @12:43PM (#39541279)
Yuzu is open source though ?? I don't get what you're saying. I should also add the previous commercial (as in, sold in shelves) emulators competing with current-gen consoles have been previously declared legal and fair competition (see e.g. Sony v. Connectix, with Connectix emulating the PlayStation)
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by borski on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @04:57PM (#39530654)
That’s where approaching someone like the EFF comes in.
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by giancarlostoro on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @11:30PM (#39534016)
Now would be their time to shine. I know they do plenty, but this would be a great time for them to show up.
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by theultdev on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @04:48PM (#39530518)
It matters for future precedence.

It can be used to win cases against other emulators and even shut them down with limited legal action.

Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by johnny99k on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @04:51PM (#39530552)
I suppose they could use Bleem VS sony
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by theultdev on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @04:51PM (#39530577)
Bleem won in that case (but ran out of funds), so it's useful for the defendant.

If Nintendo loses, the next defendant would have even more precedence.

If Nintendo wins, it's easier to go after future emulator projects.

Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by nodja on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @06:04PM (#39531427)
> The goal will be to run them out of money.

They're already making $30k/month on patreon and you can easily foresee that this legal action will cause a call to arms for even greater funding, if that was indeed their goal they could have targeted the much smaller ryujinx and set a precedent.

Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by vineyardmike on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @07:51PM (#39532463)
30K is nothing when it comes to paying for lawyers. This money will be gone by the time anyone enters a courthouse.
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by GabrielTFS on Wednesday February 28, 2024 @12:49PM (#39541347)
Nintendo might try to get an injunction to stop the Patreon (or just DMCA Patreon) to prevent them from getting funds...
Re:Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu by diego_sandoval on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @05:54PM (#39531324)
Unless the EFF or a similar org supports them.