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Re:Relativistic Spaceship by dfee on Monday February 05, 2024 @06:44PM (#39268770)
I’d like to see a map of the known universe visualizing atomic density on a log scale.

I’d never seen “a hundred atoms per cubic meter”, but it’s always been my intuition that, without some quite interesting shielding, you couldn’t make it anywhere near the speed of light. And on the other hand, I’ve seen claims that “space is really big” as you mentioned; but that claim has always seemed dubious.

Re:Relativistic Spaceship by eru on Monday February 05, 2024 @07:44PM (#39269296)
> I’d never seen “a hundred atoms per cubic meter”, but it’s always been my intuition that, without some quite interesting shielding, you couldn’t make it anywhere near the speed of light.

It's not that bad. With currently known science, your fuel would most likely be hydrogen so you can run a fusion reactor.

The rocket equation tells you that most of your starship by mass would be fuel, if you want to go fast.

Of all the stuff on your ship that's not fuel, you'd probably need quite a bit of water for survival needs.

So you would make your spaceship relatively long and thin (to maximize internal volume for a given frontal area), and you would store your fuel (and water) in front of you to serve as exactly that shield.

Re:Relativistic Spaceship by tsimionescu on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @02:23AM (#39271745)
Wouldn't your water and food then become highly radioactive over time?

Even if no, it would mean your shield will be gradually consumed. Not sure this is the best idea.

Re:Relativistic Spaceship by eru on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @03:32AM (#39272203)
Your fuel is the outermost layer of your shields (modulo whatever is necessary to keep the fuel in place. But you might use magnetic fields perhaps).

That's basically free shielding: you have to carry the fuel around anyway, so you might as well put it to good use. If you run a nuclear fusion reactor, you won't really lose much of the mass of your fuel, unless you want to. Eg you could use the helium you produce as the reaction mass for your ion drive. (I haven't done the numbers to see how the required mass per second for your ion drive compares to the helium mass per second a nuclear fusion reactor would spit out.)

Because it's a free shield, you don't really get to complain about your shield being gradually consumed.

Of course, you can have some extra shielding further inside. You would keep your water forward of your people, but behind your fuel. So your water would not bear the brunt.

Hydrogen doesn't really get all that radioactive: you can use chemical means to remove any helium or so you might accidentally produce; and hydrogen's isotopes are both pretty short lived and relatively easy to separate. (At least much easier than eg enriching uranium.)

Your water and food is also only a very small fraction of the overall mass of your rocket: as always, the vast majority is made up of fuel.

Re:Relativistic Spaceship by tsimionescu on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @06:21AM (#39273129)
Your fuel still gets consumed, so you still can't rely on your fuel as the main form of shielding. Towards the end of your journey, your rocket is approximately 0% fuel. And at the point of highest speed, before you start decelerating, it is roughly 50% fuel.

And you are entirely wrong about the isotopes of hydrogen. Tritium is highly radioactive, with a half life of ~12 years. And it is not just hard, but virtually impossible to isolate tritium out of water. So if any tritium forms (which is an extremely common by-product of any fusion reactions which might happen, and the most common decay product of heavier hydrogen isotopes), it will render your water quite poisonous for human consumption, virtually irrevocably.

Re:Relativistic Spaceship by ben_w on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @07:14AM (#39273410)
> And you are entirely wrong about the isotopes of hydrogen. Tritium is highly radioactive, with a half life of ~12 years. And it is not just hard, but virtually impossible to isolate tritium out of water.

On the contrary, it's quite easy to do if there is any significant fraction of tritium present. The proportional mass difference of ³H vs. ¹H is x3, which alters the chemistry enough to make separation easy. You can use fractional distillation or electrolysis even for ²H — even mere hobbyists involved in the DIY fusion reactor scene sometimes extract deuterium from water this way, tritium would be easier.

Re:Relativistic Spaceship by tsimionescu on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @07:34AM (#39273527)
Oops, looks like reading the first Google result I could find wasn't the best way to research this topic... Sorry and thank you for the correction.
Re:Relativistic Spaceship by ben_w on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @08:34AM (#39274001)
Happens to us all, thank you for being gracious about it :)
Re:Relativistic Spaceship by eru on Wednesday February 07, 2024 @12:26AM (#39284841)
With a half-life of 12 years and the time interstellar voyages take, you can just let your tritium sit around for a while. (In addition to what the other comment said about separation actually being relatively easy.)

Depending on your fusion reactor, you might actually highly value any tritium produced, instead of seeing it as a nuisance.

> Your fuel still gets consumed, so you still can't rely on your fuel as the main form of shielding. Towards the end of your journey, your rocket is approximately 0% fuel. And at the point of highest speed, before you start decelerating, it is roughly 50% fuel.

With a nuclear engine you make a difference between fuel and propellant. When you fuse your hydrogen into helium, you still have the helium afterwards.

I haven't run the numbers to see how your fuel consumption would compare to your propellant consumption for a reasonable fusion powered rocket. Though I suspect that you also need oodles of propellant, given how the rocket equation works.

For the first part of your journey you could rely on passive shielding via your propellant. For the latter part, you could use more costly active shielding like a big magnetic field or ablative shields in front of your main rocket etc.

Basically, you would still want to use your propellant as free shielding as much as possible.

Re:Relativistic Spaceship by MilStdJunkie on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @09:59AM (#39274864)
Bussard ramjets will have problems at higher relativistic speeds. The fundamental issue[1] is that from the perspective of a near light speed system, everything else is near-frozen - which includes things like neutron capture and electromagnetism.

It's sort of funny, but dozens or hundreds of orders of magnitude below, the same sort of dynamics are at work in air-breathing ramjets. The impact velocity of the medium is starting to tell, and the exhaust velocity isn't particularly more energetic than what's threatening to ionize the air around your leading edges.

[1] Well, aside from the fact you're exceeding the average velocity of your exhaust mass

Re:Relativistic Spaceship by eru on Wednesday February 07, 2024 @12:19AM (#39284801)
You are right. But I wasn't talking about a ramjet. I was talking about a rocket that brings all the fuel and propellant it needs.

I'm not sure what you mean by electromagnetism being near-frozen? Doesn't electromagnetism also travel at the speed of light?

Re:Relativistic Spaceship by wongarsu on Monday February 05, 2024 @07:15PM (#39269072)
100 atoms per cubic meter is on the lower end of typical densities in the interstellar medium. It can get many orders of magnitude denser than that.

Outside galaxies you have better chances of surviving high speeds. The intergalactic medium is only 1-10 particles per cubic meter in the web of gas we call the warm–hot intergalactic medium, and possibly less outside of that.

Re:Relativistic Spaceship by micw on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @12:51AM (#39271232)
So would probably better to get out of the galaxy disc, travel -fast- to the other end and dive back into rather that go straight through the galaxy?
Re:Relativistic Spaceship by wordpad25 on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @01:41AM (#39271464)
Except we can't get to edge of the galaxy quickly.

I guess Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy building space highways destroying everything in the way could be more than a gag after all.

Re:Relativistic Spaceship by ben_w on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @07:16AM (#39273423)
Go up and over, that's only a few hundred light years. To the edge of the disk is 30,000.
Re:Relativistic Spaceship by sega_sai on Monday February 05, 2024 @11:19PM (#39270748)
One nice illustration of "space is really big" is a fact that if you take the cube with the side equal to the distance from the Sun to the nearest star and fill it with water, then the mass of this cube will be roughly equal to the mass of the whole visible Universe.
Re:Relativistic Spaceship by wincy on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @12:06AM (#39270995)
Another good one for me is that a cubic light year or butter would immediately collapse into a black hole with a Schwarzchild radius larger than the observable universe.
Re:Relativistic Spaceship by jemfinch on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @12:43AM (#39271184)
It's impossible for your fact and the fact you're replying to both be true. Water is denser than butter, and the nearest star to the sun is about 4.3ly away; if your fact were true, the universe would be a black hole.

A cubic lightyear is about 8.468e+50 liters, and butter weighs 911 g/L, giving the mass of a cubic lightyear of butter to be 7.714348e+50, whose Schwarzchild radius is about 121,103,293 lightyears, about 100x smaller than the radius of the known universe.

Re:Relativistic Spaceship by lloeki on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @02:24AM (#39271752)
> if your fact were true, the universe would be a black hole

... maybe it is? Hear my pet theory out.

Extrapolating backwards from the expansion of our universe, the Big Bang model posits a hyperdense state that exceeds black hole levels originating from a singularity, yet it's thought that somehow it did not collapse back, handwaving it as "physics as we know it did not apply".

But maybe physics as we know it does apply. Notably physics as we know it does not imply a specific direction for the arrow of time.

So our universe might very well be a black hole, but we have time backwards compared to the usual way we think of black holes: what we think of as the origin of time and space is what we think of as the irremediable end of time and space in a black hole.

Re:Relativistic Spaceship by simonh on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @06:47AM (#39273254)
I like it! Not sure it works though. We observe the expansion of the universe accelerating, with gravity too weak to counter it. Reversing that would mean it's collapsing faster than the gravitational attraction of it's contents can account for. So either way, gravity isn't enough to explain what we observe.
Re:Relativistic Spaceship by hnuser123456 on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @08:29AM (#39273958)
schwarzschild radius of mass of the universe (3.4 * 10^54 kg) = 5.05 * 10^24 km

radius of universe = 4.4 * 10^23 km (47b ly)

mass required to have schwarzschild radius of 4.4 * 10^23 km = 2.96 * 10^53 kg

Surely we are still discovering the implications of these numbers being so close.

I like your time-reversed black hole framing, thanks for that.

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i2d=true&i=+schwarzschild +radius+of+mass+of+the+universe

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=radius+of+universe

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i2d=true&i=+schwarzschild +radius+of+2.96*Power%5B10%2C53%5D+kg

Re:Relativistic Spaceship by MilStdJunkie on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @09:50AM (#39274769)
IANAP, but possibly because you're measuring different attributes of the same thing - i.e., mass - but we as a species don't really understand the fundamentals of what mass actually is.

Before ANGRY KEYBOARD SOUNDS commence, I'm not saying we don't know what mass is, I'm saying fundamentals. I.e., why is mass. What causes it to come into being? Bulk entanglement, i.e., a function of probability or "mass as destiny"? Tiny signals? Lots of rubber sheeting? Etc.

Re:Relativistic Spaceship by raattgift on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @10:50AM (#39275658)
> Hear [me] out

Ok.

> a black hole, but we have time backwards compared to the usual way we think of black holes

Observations of our universe are straightforwardly understood -- and predicted -- by laying matter fields on an expanding Robertson-Walker metric. The same observations are not at all easy to understand by laying matter fields on a time-reversed Oppenheimer-Snyder-like black hole metric.

The first thing you run into is that at the largest scales (i.e., where the solid angles subtended by galaxy clusters are small for observers like us) visible matter is arranged roughly isotropically and roughly homogeneously: we detect typical spiral galaxies (and more importantly various atomic line transitions associated with them, like the <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyman-alpha_forest>) at all sorts of redshifts.

Your homework would be to generate lightlike geodesics that can reproduce these observations at any time in a black-hole-like metric. If you can do that at for a single spacelike slice of your black hole, you then would want to work on evolving that slice using e.g. the <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initial_value_formulation_(gen...>.

Just scratching the surface of how you would go about doing that would be an interesting research project for a layperson. Among other things, you would end up learning a lot more about what's in your second paragraph, and likely develop an idea about how much work is involved in writing down even a simple "pet theory" of physical cosomology that accords with observational data. Or at least you'd have a better idea of what observational data there is that needs to be accounted for. You'd also confront all sorts of open questions about the interiors of black holes where there is significant matter; that would be timely given the recent preprint by Roy Kerr at <https://arxiv.org/abs/2312.00841>.

Re:Relativistic Spaceship by sliken on Wednesday February 07, 2024 @03:14AM (#39285897)
The way it was explained to me is that at the big bang space itself was expanding at faster than the speed of light. So over blackhole density could evolve into less than blackhole density.
Re:Relativistic Spaceship by heads on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @01:51AM (#39271530)
Wasn’t one of the great puzzles of the 20th century exactly this — will the universe collapse back into a singularity or not?
Re:Relativistic Spaceship by ben_w on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @06:54AM (#39273294)
> if your fact were true, the universe would be a black hole.

The mass of ordinary matter in the universe is 2×10^53 kilograms, which would have a Schwarzchild radius of 31.39 billion light years. The explanation from popular science communicators on this topic have never satisfied me.

Your maths is correct for one cubic light year of butter. Proxima Centauri is 4.247 light years away, and that gives such a cube of water[0] a mass of 6.468×10^52 kilograms[1], which would have a Schwarzchild radius of 10.15 billion light years.

[0] At STP, which isn't realistic at all

[1] Close enough; I think it was Brian Cox who once joked that in cosmology it is standard practice to approximate π as 1.

Re:Relativistic Spaceship by Enginerrrd on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @09:23AM (#39274450)
The schwarzchild radius of the observable universe is indeed roughly the size of the observable universe.

Now, since the universe doesn't appear to be a blackhole, we assume there's an equal amount of stuff outside of it pulling it back into flatness.

The hoop conjecture doesn't apply in a small region of a very homogenous universe

Re:Relativistic Spaceship by tlonny on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @04:38AM (#39272527)
This sounded completely false to me initially. When I think of taking mass and turning it into black holes, it involves squashing the mass into a strictly smaller volume.

Thus I would've expected the radius of the black hole to be necessarily smaller than the dimensions of the butter cube.

However, I now realize my mistake - in examples like squashing mount Everest or earth or a neutron star into a black hole, we're starting with masses that are stable/in equilibrium. This would not be the case for a cubic light year of butter!

Further, it looks like the radius is directly proportional to the mass. Given that mass grows cubic with respect to dimension, it's expected the radius of the black hole would eventually outgrow the cube of butter if made sufficiently large...

Re:Relativistic Spaceship by WitCanStain on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @12:07AM (#39271003)
Source?
Re:Relativistic Spaceship by penteract on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @12:37AM (#39271153)
Re:Relativistic Spaceship by sliken on Wednesday February 07, 2024 @03:08AM (#39285853)
From quora:

The vacuum in solar space is around 10^7 atoms per cubic metre; the vacuum of interstellar space is around 10^6 atoms per cubic metre; and the vacuum of intergalactic space is around 1 atom per cubic metre.