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Re:Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspir... by mypastself on Saturday February 03, 2024 @07:15AM (#39239612)
> [On] 23rd August 1994, the chaotic music duo and performance artists Bill Drummond and Jimmy Cauty burned £1m of notes behind a boathouse on the Scottish island of Jura. They are not alone in attempting to reduce money’s power…

They literally increased the purchasing power of each remaining pound by doing so.

Re:Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspir... by huppeldepup on Saturday February 03, 2024 @07:33AM (#39239751)
There’s a documentary called “ watch the K foundation burn a million quid” well worth watching.
Re:Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspir... by Towaway69 on Sunday February 04, 2024 @12:36PM (#39252375)
Agreed because it's a very human docu. It's more about the human experiences of burning 1mil rather than prompting the act - which remains very controversial.
Re:Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspir... by CraigJPerry on Saturday February 03, 2024 @08:08AM (#39240017)
The Bank of England destroys between 10-30 billion pounds worth of notes per year (no longer fit for circulation). Sterling has other issuing banks too beyond BoE. I don’t think it’s possible to measure 1m notes going absent by any observable metric.

Even if it were possible, the purchasing power wouldn’t change - you coffee shop wouldn’t reduce their prices but they might adjust staffing levels in an extreme case (not remotely likely to happen with £1mm diff in circulation)

Re:Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspir... by rich_sasha on Saturday February 03, 2024 @08:31AM (#39240176)
As a nitpick, presumably the banknotes destroyed by BoE are then replaced by other banknotes.

But I agree this is likely unmeasurable.

Re:Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspir... by ttoinou on Saturday February 03, 2024 @08:34AM (#39240195)
Correct, it's the rarety of all others bank notes that is increased, increasing purchasing power is only one consequence possible but not the only one.

By the way, being hard to measure doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And there are plenty of things easy to measure that are meaningless

Re:Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspir... by CraigJPerry on Saturday February 03, 2024 @10:49AM (#39241433)
Bank notes are not re-issued 1:1 with destroyed notes.

>> being hard to measure doesn't mean it doesn't exist

No in this context it does. Either you can measure the increase purchasing power or you can’t. And if you can’t measure it, it doesn’t exist in this specific case.

Re:Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspir... by ttoinou on Saturday February 03, 2024 @04:33PM (#39244959)
Most economics consequences will never be measured ever
Re:Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspir... by CraigJPerry on Saturday February 03, 2024 @06:46PM (#39245930)
I think we’d be getting into something akin to “homeopathic” monetary theory with that line of reasoning…!
Re:Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspir... by ttoinou on Sunday February 04, 2024 @05:47AM (#39249179)
Do you only do stuff in life that you think will be able to measure a posteriori ?
Re:Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspir... by hilbert42 on Saturday February 03, 2024 @08:39AM (#39240248)
"The Bank of England destroys between 10-30 billion pounds worth of notes per year (no longer fit for circulation)."

The difference is that when BoE destroys notes they are accounted for by either the issuing of new notes and or crediting their withdrawal with a bank-entry credit thus the money in circulation does not change.

Burning notes willy nilly effectively reduces the amount of currency in circulation because the central bank thinks the money still in circulation and doesn't replace it. This is why in many countries defacing or destroying the currency is unlawful.

Re:Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspir... by yard2010 on Saturday February 03, 2024 @09:38AM (#39240692)
I believe he meant it's such a low number it wouldn't be relevant anyway - same as merging facebook accounts with wifey to not take that space on facebook
Re:Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspir... by hilbert42 on Saturday February 03, 2024 @10:36AM (#39241285)
Right, clearly burning a million or perhaps even quite some millions would have a negligible effect on the currency, similarly millions in counterfeit money would have to be circulated to actually destabilize the currency (that's assuming the dud notes aren't noticed first).

Clearly, in modern times in modern democracies it's very unlikely that in any practical scenario that some entity would be capable of unofficially adding or withdrawing enough money from a currency to actually destabilize it, moreover in such an event the central bank/government would be onto it in seconds.

It's however an altogether different scenario if the citizenry somehow has the perception that the currency isn't exactly what the central bank purports it to be. Just the notion that something may be wrong with the currency could destabilize it, hence hellishly tight laws to ensure this never happens.

Re:Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspir... by mypastself on Saturday February 03, 2024 @10:03AM (#39240932)
Yes, but e.g. even though the gravitational force exerted by my body affects you only in miniscule amounts, it’s still there.

(Miniscule until I manage to stuff my face with enough donuts.)

Re:Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspir... by keiferski on Saturday February 03, 2024 @07:50AM (#39239883)
By what, 0.00001%? I think the quoted sentence is obviously talking about the symbolic power of money – and burning a million pounds certainly has a lot of that.
Re:Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspir... by amelius on Saturday February 03, 2024 @08:10AM (#39240026)
And the purchasing power of any pound still to be printed by the government.
Re:Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspir... by croes on Saturday February 03, 2024 @07:33AM (#39239748)
>They literally increased the purchasing power of each remaining pound by doing so.

Did they. Notes aren't a limited resource and they can still be considered in the cashflow

Re:Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspir... by thaumasiotes on Saturday February 03, 2024 @07:43AM (#39239827)
Assuming they (or someone else) owned the notes, yes. By reducing their own holdings, they raised the value of everyone else's.

If the notes were counterfeit or had otherwise managed to come into existence without being owned by anyone, then no.

Re:Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspir... by venusenvy47 on Saturday February 03, 2024 @07:53AM (#39239900)
Would it raise the value of the currency if the central bank didn't know this stash was destroyed? It seems like this pile of cash would still be considered to be "in circulation" until the central bank declared it to not be.
Re:Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspir... by Exuma on Saturday February 03, 2024 @08:09AM (#39240020)
A better question is do I make everyone else’s dollar worth more for the duration that I hold and don’t spend my dollars
Re:Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspir... by ImHereToVote on Saturday February 03, 2024 @08:39AM (#39240234)
Yes. That is precisely why we don't get runaway inflation when people own a ton of property or have tons of money in index funds. That money supply isn't doing anything in particular.
Re:Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspir... by thaumasiotes on Saturday February 03, 2024 @08:55AM (#39240349)
Do you make everyone else's stock worth more for the duration that you hold your shares without selling them?

Rephrasing that question, if you were holding a bunch of shares of stock, and you sell them, will that lower the price of that stock?

Re:Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspir... by mouse_ on Saturday February 03, 2024 @07:56AM (#39239927)
Yes
Re:Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspir... by thaumasiotes on Saturday February 03, 2024 @08:01AM (#39239958)
The central bank's knowledge isn't relevant in any way. The value of the currency goes up because the willingness of people to spend it went down. You can't spend money that doesn't exist, so this effect will occur regardless of anyone's knowledge of anything.
Re:Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspir... by croes on Saturday February 03, 2024 @08:23AM (#39240123)
By your logic the currency goes up when the poor get poorer
Re:Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspir... by thaumasiotes on Saturday February 03, 2024 @08:25AM (#39240133)
Yes, if a million poor people lose $1 each, that has the same effect as one guy losing $1 million.
Re:Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspir... by croes on Saturday February 03, 2024 @09:23AM (#39240569)
If million people lose $1, nobody cares. If one guy loses 1 million he might cut costs that will affect others.

If people like Musk lose wealth because of sinking stock prices, his workers don't have suddenly more buying power.

Re:Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspir... by thaumasiotes on Saturday February 03, 2024 @11:14AM (#39241697)
Something seems to have gone badly wrong in your choice of example - that didn't even involve any money.
Re:Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspir... by croes on Sunday February 04, 2024 @12:17PM (#39252160)
It's money just not cash.

Most money is book money and the burning of 1 million doesn't change the purchasing of the people because cash isn't linked to a finite resource like gold.

Re:Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspir... by satellite2 on Saturday February 03, 2024 @08:10AM (#39240028)
I don't really understand your comment.

Generally it's accepted that the value went up because it became more rare as the number of unit went down. Or similarly because if all the money represents the price of everything in the economy, as there is less money and assuming that everything in the economy didn't change, then everything has now a slightly lower price.

Re:Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspir... by thaumasiotes on Saturday February 03, 2024 @08:46AM (#39240284)
> Generally it's accepted that the value went up because it became more rare as the number of unit went down.

That's true.

> Or similarly because if all the money represents the price of everything in the economy, as there is less money and assuming that everything in the economy didn't change, then everything has now a slightly lower price.

That can't be true in any meaningful way, because all the money doesn't represent the price of everything in the economy. "Everything in the economy" is always worth many multiples of "all the money".

The definition you'll see in economics is MV = PY. It's defined with reference to the concept of GDP, and the variables are:

M is the amount of money (that year).

V is the "velocity of money", the average number of times that a particular dollar gets spent (that year).

P is the price level. The value of money (that year) is 1/P.

Y is the amount of non-monetary stuff that is produced (that year).

(I would be happier if Y was the amount of non-monetary stuff that existed, but that does not appear to be how economists prefer to talk about it. This set of definitions lets you say that MV is equal to NGDP.)

You can characterize the effect of destruction of money as a reduction in M or as a reduction in V. If you take the view that the money still exists, because it's listed on a balance sheet somewhere, then M has not gone down, but under that view V still has; it's impossible to spend that money. Assuming everyone's urge to spend as a function of their ability to spend stays unchanged, you'll see that the party who locked up $1 million (by destroying it) will, as a result, spend less. Everyone else in the relevant universe is unaffected and spends just as much as they would have anyway. Then, by our special analysis, the amount of total money spent has gone down, and the amount of money in existence hasn't, so the velocity of money has gone down.

Y is unaffected by the destruction of money. For PY to go down while Y stays constant, P must go down, which means that 1/P, the value of money, goes up.

------

Note that the implication of this velocity-based analysis is that, if a miser with tons of money in bank accounts that he'll never use happens to one day withdraw some of that money and destroy it, there will be no effect on the value of money. This is correct; that money had already been effectively destroyed when the miser committed to not spending it.

(Over a much longer term, the effect of destruction would be visible when the miser's heirs inherited a smaller amount of money than otherwise and consequently spent less.)

Re:Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspir... by retwertett on Saturday February 03, 2024 @11:00AM (#39241568)
Really interesting discussion guys. I recommend this short essay by F.A.Hayek on how prices are discovered. https://www.econlib.org/library/Essays/hykKnw.html
Re:Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspir... by yard2010 on Saturday February 03, 2024 @09:40AM (#39240711)
It's confusing to think about money as a relative not absolute resource
Re:Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspir... by api on Saturday February 03, 2024 @07:56AM (#39239928)
Re:Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspir... by hasty_pudding on Saturday February 03, 2024 @08:32AM (#39240185)
This is just rich people flexing under the BS guise of sticking it to the man.
Re:Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspir... by ascorbic on Saturday February 03, 2024 @08:52AM (#39240324)
It was their entire remaining royalty earnings. They also deleted their back catalogue so they couldn't earn any more. I remember having to buy Japanese imports when I wanted CD copies of the White Room and Chill Out as a teenager. It was only a couple of years ago when they finally reissued any of their work.
Re:Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspir... by timruffles on Saturday February 03, 2024 @08:49AM (#39240311)
Not so - it was the majority of their music industry earnings, and they are apparently quite haunted by it to this day!
Re:Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspir... by hasty_pudding on Saturday February 03, 2024 @11:46AM (#39242045)
They sound like astronomical idiots the likes of which will rarely be approached in the future of the human race.
Re:Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspir... by furyofantares on Saturday February 03, 2024 @08:36AM (#39240208)
You might argue they distributed the money amongst all existing money-havers, with each getting a microscopic share in proportion to how much money they already have. In that case it's a donation primarily to the rich.

But it's also no different than if they stuck it under a mattress for 10 years, at least until the 10 years is up. So that's also sort of a donation primarily to the rich.

Of course when the 10 years is up and they spend money, more of it will wind up in rich people's accounts than in anyone else's, if not immediately then eventually (otherwise they wouldn't stay rich.)

Re:Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspir... by ProllyInfamous on Saturday February 03, 2024 @10:43AM (#39241374)
>In that case it's a donation primarily to the rich.

[laughs, in disappearing bitcoin]