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Re:Patients say keto helps with mental illness. Science is r... by elliotec on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @02:31AM (#39187324)
I can't help but think "finally" and "told ya so" regarding this news.

It's difficult to describe how massively my life changed when I started keto.

Like the subject of the article, I've had Bipolar (1 in my case, they didn't specify their version) for most of my life, since way before it's supposed to manifest in late adolescence. I was misdiagnosed here and there since I was a very young child, but I finally got on the right treatment plan at 20 years old.

The maintenance of that treatment plan has been taking a medium dose of Lamictal, an epilepsy drug, daily. It worked damn well compared to the regular mania, often culminating in psychosis and occasional full-on can't-even-hold-a-job levels of suicidal depression, but within a week of full-blown ketosis, I was a new person.

I found out about it through some documentary disguised as "In Defense of Fat" or something similar, and I was fascinated by the epilepsy cure thing. I had always known there was a connection between my condition and epilepsy, given that I was on seizure drugs and often experienced what I figured were mini-seizures (often described as brain zaps, I think).

I couldn't find any information on links except a few random, very weak studies, and sorta just told everyone who naysayed me to fuck off cuz it works for me. I lost 20 lbs of excess covid weight as a very nice side-effect, but I can safely say this is the most effective treatment I've ever experienced for my condition (of the many, many I've tried) and I feel like I have superpowers in comparison.

It is very obvious if I get kicked out of ketosis now after a few days or so. I've done it purposefully on vacations or just random cheat times. After a while I feel worse in the head, body, and soul. I make dumb or impulsive decisions (like my old self), or am grumpy in a way I haven't been since starting. I start to have awful dreams again and wake up my wife sleep-talking in distress, and am tired all the time like the old days.

It's certainly not the easiest diet to adhere to, it's also surely not the best for the environment unless you're really strict in specific ways like some, and it's potentially disruptive socially, but it's a lifestyle choice that has given me personally a truly new and improved life that I don't ever want to or plan to return from.

Re:Patients say keto helps with mental illness. Science is r... by tmikaeld on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @02:45AM (#39187388)
> It's certainly not the easiest diet to adhere to, it's also surely not the best for the environment

I'm able to sustain keto when using Huel Black (17% carbs), but your mileage may vary.

And Huel is both vegan and sustainable.

(I'm not affiliated, just a user)

Re:Patients say keto helps with mental illness. Science is r... by elliotec on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @03:16AM (#39187571)
Interesting. Is that all you eat in a day? It looks like the lowest carb flavor is unsweetened and unflavored at 65g net for the daily 5x meals/servings (assuming there are no sugar alcohols, which they don't list on the label). That's pretty close to my maximum but definitely doable if I'm active. I could see doing 2 servings or half a day's worth and then continuing with the old eggs, avocados, and meat. Wouldn't be crazy to do vegetarian with something like that. I love the idea - have a vegan keto book too, and let's just say it's hit or miss at best.
Re:Patients say keto helps with mental illness. Science is r... by tmikaeld on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @03:27AM (#39187663)
Yep, eventually I combine it with - as you say - the standard eggs/avocados/meat.

It varies though and I use keto-sticks to check what level I'm at. And like you say, depends on daily activity.

I'm not a fan of vegan food in general (hard to get tasty), Huel is what I can tolerate.

Re:Patients say keto helps with mental illness. Science is r... by tudorw on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @03:46AM (#39187784)
I get on pretty well with Huel, pro-tip, get used to the unflavoured unsweetened version, it's dull like porridge but not unpleasant, if you are going for every day, there's no flavour to get bored of. Also, while the idea of throwing a shot of espresso in there seems appealing and maybe a time saver, no...
Re:Patients say keto helps with mental illness. Science is r... by cududa on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @04:01AM (#39187871)
How long have you done it for?
Re:Patients say keto helps with mental illness. Science is r... by tudorw on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @02:08PM (#39194237)
As a breakfast replacement, well over 12 months, I would not try it as a 100% food replacement.
Re:Patients say keto helps with mental illness. Science is r... by tmikaeld on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @05:05AM (#39188270)
I've tried it, but I couldn't handle the cardboard flavor, their flavor mixes are very good and I think that's part of why they're so popular.
Re:Patients say keto helps with mental illness. Science is r... by redeeman on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @03:20AM (#39187602)
What source does huel black use for D12?
Re:Patients say keto helps with mental illness. Science is r... by tmikaeld on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @03:30AM (#39187682)
You can ask in their forum https://discuss.huel.com/, they usually respond quickly
Re:Patients say keto helps with mental illness. Science is r... by redeeman on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @07:12AM (#39189185)
as far as I know, the only real sources of it is from animal, even when you buy it as a supplement, so unless they have something very unusual, I would think it either is lacking essential vitamins, or cannot be vegan
Re:Patients say keto helps with mental illness. Science is r... by ksala_ on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @08:22AM (#39189782)
I don't know what D12 is (and I haven't been able to find anything from some online searches), but you can find the sources of their vitamins (and other components) in https://eu.huel.com/pages/about-the-vitamins-minerals-in-hue...

If you're talking about B12, they use Cyanocobalamin which is produced by bacterias - Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanocobalamin#Production.

Re:Patients say keto helps with mental illness. Science is r... by leechy on Sunday February 04, 2024 @12:21AM (#39247824)
Do you mean B12?
Re:Patients say keto helps with mental illness. Science is r... by golergka on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @03:26AM (#39187648)
In currently taking Lamictal for similar reasons, and your comment really made me curious. Any particular resources you would recommend on how to switch to keto?
Re:Patients say keto helps with mental illness. Science is r... by elliotec on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @04:03AM (#39187881)
Honestly, the subreddit is one of the better places to start. Check out the FAQ here: https://www.reddit.com/r/keto/wiki/faq, and go through the resources in the sidebar on the sub!
Re:Patients say keto helps with mental illness. Science is r... by MrBuddyCasino on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @04:41AM (#39188115)
The brain likes keto, no question. I'm not sure it is a good to do it for longer periods of time, it supposedly stresses the body [0]. I did it for a year and continually lost weight, and it wasn't for lack of calories.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qcAStYJwpg

Re:Patients say keto helps with mental illness. Science is r... by tmikaeld on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @05:12AM (#39188318)
How often per day did you eat and did you measure your keto levels?

Thing is that if you over-do it and have too high keto-levels, you can get poisoned by it and that certainly have a high level of stress on the body. (The old man points this out in your video)

Also, if you don't eat often enough, you may not trigger insulin and thus won't get hungry at all and get to little calories (thus dropping in weight).

Re:Patients say keto helps with mental illness. Science is r... by MrBuddyCasino on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @05:17AM (#39188369)
> How often per day did you eat and did you measure your keto levels?

You mean using a breathalyzer? I did not find them to be very consistent.

Re:Patients say keto helps with mental illness. Science is r... by tmikaeld on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @05:34AM (#39188493)
They're not, it's better to use keto-sticks, which you urinate on. That's what i use.
Re:Patients say keto helps with mental illness. Science is r... by MrBuddyCasino on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @05:47AM (#39188563)
I found them to be unreliable, too. The colors would go dark when switching into ketosis, and then while in ketosis revert back, as the body adapts its keton body production and the urine levels would go down again. Which I guess isn't "unreliable", just doesn't tell you that much.
Re:Patients say keto helps with mental illness. Science is r... by sph on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @07:03AM (#39202777)
The brain likes keto because of betahydroxybutyrate, though it's the only organ to require glucose (not a problem in keto as we have gluconeogenesis from fat and proteins)

You know what likes keto even more? Your heart. There are studies and research of fatty acids being able to reverse heart disease, and them being incredibly more efficient fuels than glucose is. N=1 placebo, but I certainly feel my heart (in an overweight body) pumping better and with less effort 1+ weeks into very low carb.

Adaptation takes a while because our mitochondria are dysfunctional due to standard diets being so high in glucose. Fatty acids are the better fuel for muscles, and mitochondria in general.

Re:Patients say keto helps with mental illness. Science is r... by jdietrich on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @04:48AM (#39188145)
>I can't help but think "finally" and "told ya so" regarding this news.

I don't want to dismiss your personal experiences, but I think that's the wrong conclusion to draw.

Common mental illnesses - particularly depression and anxiety - have incredibly high placebo response rates. Everything looks like a promising treatment for depression in an uncontrolled trial. You can pick practically any intervention - including literal sugar pills - and get ~40% remission rates in an open-label pilot study. Many thousands of potential treatments supported by plausible theories, anecdotal accounts, case reports and small uncontrolled trials have fallen flat as soon as they were tested rigorously. The base rate suggests that the chance of a keto diet (or any other intervention with this level of evidence) being an effective treatment for depression is on the order of 0.1%.

If keto works for you then you should stick with it. The problem is that it's overwhelmingly likely to be no more effective for other people than a low-fat diet or a low-GI diet or sugar pills or faith healing. Articles like this one do a huge disservice to patients, because they completely neglect the base rate and perpetuate a cycle of hype and disappointment that can ultimately lead to distrust and despair.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7945737/

Re:Patients say keto helps with mental illness. Science is r... by elliotec on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @05:10AM (#39188295)
I’m not drawing any conclusions or promoting it for anyone else. I’m expressing excitement that there is clearly _something there_ that other people see too and are willing to put through research rigor. It’s validating to see that others might have found treatment this way in their own vacuum and is worth looking into.

Regarding placebo - they do touch on this in the article. I have pretty high confidence it’s not placebo for me. But that’s the point, we just don’t know yet and all I’m saying is I’m glad we will soon know more based on my experience.

Re:Patients say keto helps with mental illness. Science is r... by marginalia_nu on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @05:10AM (#39188303)
It's questionable whether it's placebo, or whether the placebo intervention itself is a non-placebo intervention.

To partake in a study you need to get out of the house, go somewhere new, talk to new people a few times, do something new, get some daylight, etc. Those are all things we know has a positive effect on depression.

Big part of treating depression is to make people do those sorts of things, despite their bodies and mind screaming stay in bed, it's not worth it.

Re:Patients say keto helps with mental illness. Science is r... by wouldbecouldbe on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:01AM (#39188653)
Did you read the story, OP has no depression but BiPolar with psychotic episodes and was previously put on epileptic medicine
Re:Patients say keto helps with mental illness. Science is r... by marginalia_nu on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @09:20AM (#39190381)
Right, and I was responding to the remarks made in the parent post about depression.
Re:Patients say keto helps with mental illness. Science is r... by wouldbecouldbe on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @05:06AM (#39188277)
Jeez, chill out.

You have zero proof & did zero research on this person, yet trying to put someone who down sees profound benefit with the good old: "it's just placebo".

Just because there is no direct studies backing it up yet doesn't mean there isn't real effect. Could be keto, could be lack of certain starches or other foods, could be the focus & rhytm, whatever it is let's not discourage someone who is having a great practical benefit.

In this case there is literature & studies on epilepsy and keto, and OP was on put on epileptic medicine & describes a link: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6361831/

Re:Patients say keto helps with mental illness. Science is r... by jdietrich on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @05:24AM (#39188426)
>You have zero proof

Proof of what? I fully accept that this guy finds keto really helpful and I have made no effort to dispute that. There is a world of difference between "a thing that some people find helpful" and "an evidence-based clinical intervention".

>Just because there is no direct studies backing it up yet doesn't mean there isn't real effect.

The entire point of my comment is that the chance of there being a "real" effect (i.e. greater than placebo) is extremely low. That isn't the same as saying "this is definitely, 100% bogus".

Re:Patients say keto helps with mental illness. Science is r... by wouldbecouldbe on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @05:43AM (#39188542)
Your chance calculation has zero arguments & zero proof.

You do know things can be effective without evidence-based clinical trials?

Just because there isn't any clinical trial done on it, doesn't mean it defaults to a placebo effect. What makes this case even more convincing is that there is literature on Epilepsy and keto, and OP was on put on epileptic medicine before: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6361831/

Everything new, and old but unprofitable, lack clinical trials. Clinical trials are extremely hard and expensive. Especially on complicated issues with hard to control variables: for instance mental issues with similar symptoms might have different causes.

Clinical trials are trying to prove what works safely for a large group, that's it, nothing more.

Re:Patients say keto helps with mental illness. Science is r... by carom on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @03:05PM (#39194978)
It is actually not low. There are numerous studies on how cutting out gluten has positive health outcomes for schizophrenia, epilepsy, and autism. [1,2,3] Not to mention numerous anecdotes from diabetics about how going on keto got them to reduce or stop using insulin.

As someone who has allergies and a ton of symptoms that were alleviated by cutting out foods, it is really tiresome to hear that it is placebo or it is psychosomatic. Before I knew it was allergies and had the test in hand, I just had to grin and nod along when someone said my chronic sinus headaches were essentially make believe. Now I have a piece of paper that confirmed just about every food I had cut out or naturally avoided.

You are clearly not familiar with the research in this area. People dealing with mystery symptoms that are cleared up by cutting out certain foods will generally be. Maybe hold off on telling them it is placebo?

1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6606425/

2. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6586915/

3. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3747763/

Re:Patients say keto helps with mental illness. Science is r... by wreckdropibex on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @03:39PM (#39209052)
> chronic sinus headaches

As I am writing this, I am going through something like this. Over a longer period of time I have made myself believe that it is related to what/when I eat etc. If you can, could you share what were the triggers for you?

Re:Patients say keto helps with mental illness. Science is r... by NotSuspicious on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @05:05AM (#39188274)
Except OP has noticed that when they go out of ketosis everything gets worse again. They've effectively run numerous trials on themselves.
Re:Patients say keto helps with mental illness. Science is r... by UtopiaPunk on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @11:13AM (#39191851)
Surely you realize that this not an effective test against the placebo effect.

If society wants to determine if X is generally an effective treatment for Y, there need to be robust experiments that involve multiple people as subjects.

If, however, one guy feels a lot better doing X, and feels worse they stop doing X, then sure, that person should probably keep doing X. Why does X work for that person? Who knows?

Re:Patients say keto helps with mental illness. Science is r... by bvvg on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @10:48AM (#39191469)
> Common mental illnesses - particularly depression and anxiety - have incredibly high placebo response rates.

In my experience, both long term, major depressive disorder and generalized anxiety disorder only substantially improve through understanding, which of course is realized in at least 2 ways: experience and/or therapy.

We can say with some certainty that antidepressants' effectiveness is questionable, at best, long term, but of particular interest for effective indication would be any number of psychoactive substances, which routinely make headlines for this type of treatment but remain taboo for some still yet to be resolved reasons.

Of course this ultimately boils down to personal choices, but attitudes towards drugs will change before we see any real progress in this area, I'm afraid.

Re:Patients say keto helps with mental illness. Science is r... by gexla on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @05:55AM (#39188612)
When I was on a keto phase, one day I noticed that I was so clear headed and energetic that I thought something broke inside me. It was like a persistent coffee kick without the side-effects. I realized that the feeling was probably how "normal" should feel. It changed my views about a lot of things. I would walk down the road and realize how many business fronts were restaurants, of which I had no desire to enter. I never bothered with any checks for keto, I just ate loads of low carb veggies, a little bit of meat, and coconut oil for added fat. A note on the oil, I had to make sure that I took it with meat, or else I would get sick to my stomach.

My lifestyle changed once I got a live-in partner. I need to get back on it.

Re:Patients say keto helps with mental illness. Science is r... by tarsinge on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @07:47AM (#39189473)
I have a similar story. I made major lifestyle change. But the thing is, I have got back to eating carbs and retained all the benefits (i.e. clear headless and energy all day long). Bear in mind by carbs I mean whole grain. But still, I wonder if macros are really the culprit and if keto is not placebo on top of something else (at least for me). Maybe it has something to do with insulin and glucose metabolism.
Re:Patients say keto helps with mental illness. Science is r... by gexla on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @03:17AM (#39201346)
I couldn't say it was a placebo for me, because it was so unexpected I was concerned something was wrong with me. Imagine feeling massively better and thinking something is wrong with you. I also feel like I retained some of that feel since reverting, but that in itself might be a placebo. I'll need to get back on it to see if there's a change. But even if it is a placebo, I'm all for it.
Re:Patients say keto helps with mental illness. Science is r... by wouldbecouldbe on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @07:43AM (#39189427)
It's same for fasting, your body wants clarity for you to be able to hunt & provide food. After a meal you rest & digest. Take Lions after a meal, even though we are different it's a common pattern.
Re:Patients say keto helps with mental illness. Science is r... by gexla on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @03:20AM (#39201365)
Also interesting, I was always just a little hungry. Maybe this was my body telling me that I legit needed to get more to eat (or just more carbs.) It wasn't the same sort of hunger people normally associate with the feeling though. It was a low-key feeling that would only crop up when I would get into a distracted state. Like, I was okay if I was just bored. But if I'm stressing out about something, then I think about everything else I might want other than putting focus on the work.