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Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by nupark2 on Wednesday May 02, 2012 @12:07AM (#3917580)
In terms of UX and as a consumer, I'd rather the Dropbox API not open a browser or even another app. That is not the best UX, it doesn't provide a security advantage, and it's simply not being done to benefit the consumer. This may not be Apple's primary rational for rejecting these apps, but I'm glad they're doing it.

As for the payment question, simply in terms of UX and as a consumer, I want only one payment provider and account on the device. I hate pulling my credit card out and remembering my password for the nth account.

Consumers are happy with the platform. Look at the sales numbers and earnings reports. Obviously companies like Dropbox see the value in the platform too -- I just wish they'd take the time to understand why it has that value, and why Apple has huge profits and very happy users.

Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by wvenable on Wednesday May 02, 2012 @02:25AM (#3917844)
The problem is Dropbox isn't exclusively an iOS app. So you can sign up for Dropbox directly and they get 100% of the fee or you can sign up through Apple and they get 70%. That might be more than their entire profit. They can't even make iOS purchases more expensive even if perhaps someone like you might pay 30% more for the privilege of a single payment provider.

The fact is that Apple is the one that requires apps to open the browser in the first place. It's rule upon rules upon rules. I'm an iOS user and I'm not happy with this aspect of platform, if that means anything.

Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by adgar on Wednesday May 02, 2012 @02:38AM (#3917873)
> So you can sign up for Dropbox directly and they get 100% of the fee or you can sign up through Apple and they get 70%. That might be more than their entire profit.

(Emphasis mine) Sounds like it might be time to find a new business plan, then.

Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by iloverobots on Wednesday May 02, 2012 @02:47AM (#3917885)
Many businesses (especially in the technology space) operate on far lower margins than 30%.
Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by tomgallard on Wednesday May 02, 2012 @06:19AM (#3918324)
Really? Are you talking gross or net profit?

I would be surprised to find many software products where the gross profit margin would be less than 50%.

Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by Almaviva on Wednesday May 02, 2012 @09:02AM (#3918800)
Why shouldn't we talk about net profit? Taking 30% off the top can quite easily mean the difference between viability and not, quite easily, when you factor in employees, rent, marketing, legal fees, and absolutely everything else. Isn't this precisely what the discussion should be about, whether it makes non-viable a lot of businesses that provide value to people?
Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by shod on Wednesday May 02, 2012 @08:25AM (#3918677)
Dropbox isn't a software product; it's a service. What's more, it's a service that needs to be priced to compete with Apple's own iCloud.
Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by batista on Thursday May 03, 2012 @12:29AM (#3922384)
And it being charged 10 or 13 dollars a month doesn't make much difference, if it offers a compelling service.

Software and service prices seem mostly arbitrary to me anyway.

How else Aperture went from $300 to $100, Lightroom the same, BBEdit shed 70% of it's price in one day, etc etc... Same, why was iWork a $99 package and now it's 3 components are $10 each on the Mac App Store?

Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by shod on Thursday May 03, 2012 @10:37AM (#3924013)
I haven't looked at Aperture or Lightroom, but iWork's price change isn't quite as dramatic or inscrutable as you think: the retail package was $80, and the 3 App store components are $20 each. Apple likely lowered the price as an incentive to push users into its App store, where it gets a cut from every piece of software sold. Dividing the components and selling them individually probably brought in quite a few new users such as myself who didn't want to pay $80 for the full iWork package since it's only Keynote I'm interested in.

Services are more deeply and negatively affected by price changes than software, though. A price change that seems insignificant to you can drive many users away. Look at the fiasco with Netflix last year; they changed their prices by about $6 and subsequently lost about a million subscribers within a few months. Some users see price increases as an indication of a service's instability in the marketplace (and therefore a cue to jump-ship). Most users have lower tolerance thresholds for price differences when comparing services than they do when comparing one-time purchases (like software).

Regardless, now would be a really bad time for Dropbox to increase their pricing. Many Mac & iPhone users are watching iCloud closely and realizing that it could make Dropbox redundant for them. A price increase, even one as small as a ~$30 a year change for their 50+ plan (corollary to your $3 a month change), could push enough users away from the service that Dropbox is better off sticking to its guns.

Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by pyre on Wednesday May 02, 2012 @03:56AM (#3918005)
What business are you running that has larger profit margins than 30%?
Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by codesuela on Wednesday May 02, 2012 @04:29AM (#3918064)
Obviosly he is a drug dealer
Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by batista on Wednesday May 02, 2012 @06:28AM (#3918354)
How about one that you adjust your prices by whatever so that 70% is the old 100%?

If your competitors can offer lower prices and still give away 70%, then you're not competitive enough.

Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by grhino on Wednesday May 02, 2012 @08:36AM (#3918709)
If your competition is the one that you have to give away your 30% to, maybe your competition is rigging the game?
Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by gcb on Wednesday May 02, 2012 @03:24PM (#3920690)
just do like apple does with taxes.

create a subsidiary.

dropbox.com, charges $x for 5GB

idropbox.com, a dropbox company, optionally in the caymans, charges $(1.3 * x) for 5GB and has an app.

Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by kennywinker on Wednesday May 02, 2012 @03:03PM (#3920600)
You clearly haven't read about the clauses apple put in about payments. You can't charge more in the app via apple than you charge outside the app via whatever other payment system you use.

They've rigged the game.

Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by vsl on Thursday May 03, 2012 @05:11AM (#3922981)
Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by batista on Thursday May 03, 2012 @12:25AM (#3922376)
>You clearly haven't read about the clauses apple put in about payments. You can't charge more in the app via apple than you charge outside the app via whatever other payment system you use.

No, I know of that rule. Just jack the price everywhere --if the iPhone is an important market to you, that 30% is a factor you have to take into account in your overall pricing strategy.

The same holds true for all of your competitors, after all. Either they give up the iOS market, or they have to do the same. So it's not like someone has an advantage over you.

( And, I'd say, if it IS an important market to you, well, you don't get to both have all those customers with their credit cards at the ready in a system someone else built out of thin air AND complain that you have to give him a cut).

Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by kalleboo on Wednesday May 02, 2012 @05:53AM (#3918273)
Then have fun signing up for Dropbox on you iPhone using IAP and then only getting to use Dropbox on you iOS devices (no Macs or PCs or the web), since IAPs aren't allowed to give you services outside the app

> 11.3 Apps using IAP to purchase physical goods or goods and services used outside of the application will be rejected

In app purchases are simply a wildly inadequate solution for many apps and services, and Apple forcing everyone to use them is absurd and helps nobody.

Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by stickfigure on Wednesday May 02, 2012 @11:13AM (#3919465)
Are you willing to pay 23%[1] more for the convenience of not having to open a window? Because Apple's 30% cut introduces a new cost into the system. Dunno about you, but I'll almost always take the 23% discount and click a few extra buttons.

[1] 1 - (1/1.3) is the additional percentage that must be added to a price maintain constant revenue.[2]

[2] To be pedantic, Apple also handles payment card processing, which is ~3%. So the difference is really 1-(1.03/1.30) = 20.8%

Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by nupark2 on Wednesday May 02, 2012 @02:31PM (#3920463)
> Are you willing to pay 23%[1] more for the convenience of not having to open a window?

Yes. If the choice is between UX and cost, I'll almost always pay more.

Not everyone will, but the people that don't are less profitable customers, as Apple is demonstrating.

Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by davepeck on Wednesday May 02, 2012 @01:37AM (#3917769)
I think we're actually in agreement about the positive effect of these clauses, at least for some users. I certainly want simplicity and unity in my experience too.

We perhaps disagree about the motivations behind the clauses, but without inside knowledge I suppose we'll never know for certain.

The piece that perhaps I didn't express clearly enough: there are cases where developers -- even the good ones, who care deeply about doing the right thing for their users -- are boxed in and, no matter how much they would like to play by Apple's rules, are unable to for one reason or another. The result is often worse for users.

It's the unintended consequences of the "Kindle Clauses" that I find so interesting; that was what motivated my original blog post.

Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by cageface on Wednesday May 02, 2012 @12:20AM (#3917607)
I'd rather Apple give developers the choice and let user preference sort it out.

In the long run the open market always wins.

Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by nupark2 on Wednesday May 02, 2012 @12:27AM (#3917628)
In the long run the open market doesn't behave independently rational and doesn't 'win' anything -- it simply is.

If Apple wasn't forcing the larger industry to learn how to turn a profit by putting users first, the market would simply saturate the app store with whatever existent concepts are popular today.

Remember, prior to iOS, the Mac OS X market was both cry user friendly and very insular. Now, iOS has gone mainstream, but Apple's user-friendly focus hasn't (yet?).

Of course, your open market does still exist -- users can choose Android, which thrives on the notion of 'user choice'.

Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by bad_user on Wednesday May 02, 2012 @04:19AM (#3918044)

     Of course, your open market does still exist -- 
     users can choose Android, which thrives on the
     notion of 'user choice'.
That's one reason why I, as a consumer, chose Android in the first place.

When I decided to buy a smartphone, I wanted one that allowed me to block calls and SMS messages completely, without leaving traces in the calls/sms logs. I wanted this because somehow my number ended up on a lot of spam lists and a smartphone should be smart about these things, right? If my email address is protected by spam filters, it should be a no-brainer for my smartphone to do the same for calls and SMS.

Imagine my surprise when I found out that such apps are banned from the iTunes App Store and that the only way to get such functionality on iOS was for me to root it and install software through Cydia. And why should I as a consumer go through so many hoops to use such software, when the company (that receives my money in the process) is actively hostile to my use case, a use case which is in no way immoral or unjustified.

When it comes to Android, building an app that blocks calls and SMS messages is still hard, as the APIs you have to rely on are private and keep changing, so the results are unpredictable. But upon a search on Google Play, I did find one that works well, installed with a single click. And I didn't have to root my phone.

Now that's what openness gets you - user experience is important, but it's all for nothing if the apps allowed don't solve your real problems.

Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by rmc on Wednesday May 02, 2012 @04:30AM (#3918068)
In the long run the open market always wins.

The App Store is not an open market, nor is it intended to be an open market.

Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by batista on Wednesday May 02, 2012 @06:33AM (#3918366)
>In the long run the open market always wins.

I've never seen an open market in the wild, much less it "always winning".

You mean an open market like the "$1 trillion bailout not to collapse the whole economy" open market? Or an open market like "we enforce strict copyright laws to artificially limit each copyrighted product to one maker and it's pricing at his whims"? Or an open market with patents, for the same purpose? Or an open market with frequent cartels, to everything from dairy products to RAM? Last, but not least, an open market where a country with a military advantage has several army units deployed and several wars to secure resources and keep their prices down?

Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by mkr-hn on Wednesday May 02, 2012 @07:27AM (#3918508)
You might want to hold off on the ideological rant and re-read. I think cageface was talking about application markets. I didn't know Google was using their market to bail people out and wage a secret resource war.
Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by cynicalkane on Wednesday May 02, 2012 @11:54AM (#3919703)
Why is this downvoted?

There's no reason to hijack a fairly specific discussion with a much broader ideological rant. This sort of thing has been happening on HN lately and it bothers me. It takes a potentially interesting conversation and turns it into an ideology measuring contest.

I understand that the theory of free markets in general might be applicable here, but the point is the way the GP is framing the debate it can't be resolved without much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by geon on Wednesday May 02, 2012 @07:55AM (#3918589)
> I think cageface was talking about application markets.

What application market is it that is open and always wins?

Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by mkr-hn on Wednesday May 02, 2012 @08:18AM (#3918661)
I can't read minds. You should ask the person who didn't appear to be referring to markets outside of app stores.
Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by epo on Wednesday May 02, 2012 @08:48AM (#3918757)
He said "open markets" you are putting words into his mouth to back up your own. ideology.
Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by mkr-hn on Wednesday May 02, 2012 @09:41AM (#3918958)
I've made no claims about markets. How could you even know if I have an ideology? That was an attempt at clarification so we could avoid the off-topic and inevitably unproductive political tangent batista was about to start.
Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by batista on Wednesday May 02, 2012 @10:28AM (#3919205)
>You might want to hold off on the ideological rant and re-read. I think cageface was talking about application markets.

The same hold true for application markets. In any market where money are involved and parties with interests of their own can get a stronghold on the rules, the results are the same.

>I didn't know Google was using their market to bail people out and wage a secret resource war.

Well, pushing their own apps to users with "picks" and front-page promotion is akin to a bailout. They can restrict apps that compete with their core businesses in a snap, they can change the rules of the game anytime, etc. They use it to do whatever offers them a competitive advantage.

Apple's marketplace is an even better example, as it is more closed. Google cannot close the Android marketplace at the same level, because they cannot do all the stuff Apple pulls and still attract developers away from more lucrative iOS at the same time (developers are the "scarce resource" here).

Btw: "ideological rant" implies that something I said re: "free markets" does not hold true and I say it because of my ideology. Can you point to it? Else it's not "ideological", it's mere empirical observation.

Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by kika on Thursday May 03, 2012 @01:03PM (#3924673)
>"ideological rant" implies that something I said re: "free markets" does not hold true and I say it because of my ideology. Can you point to it?

I can. You didn't say (as in "state") anything. You asked a rapid fire succession of rhetorical questions. Rhetorical questions are one of the best indicators of ideology (as in "zealotry").

Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by frogpelt on Wednesday May 02, 2012 @11:42AM (#3919625)
Each of the things you mentioned were instances in which the government interfered with the open market and made things worse.

The free market left to itself would fix most of it's own problems (I say most because I think some regulation is necessary and good). But it requires patience to let the market work.

Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by mirkules on Wednesday May 02, 2012 @12:18PM (#3919840)
Not so fast: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D._Rockefeller#Monopoly

The free market left to itself will eventually converge into a monopoly.

Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by kika on Thursday May 03, 2012 @01:13PM (#3924719)
What's true for railways or airlines is not always true for applications and web services. The barriers in the latter markets are much, much lower.
Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by mistermann on Wednesday May 02, 2012 @01:59PM (#3920338)
> The free market left to itself will sometimes converge into a monopoly.
Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by batista on Wednesday May 02, 2012 @12:40PM (#3919955)
>Each of the things you mentioned were instances in which the government interfered with the open market and made things worse.

No, all the things that I mention are instances of actual markets. Were is this free market? If it's possible, why it hasn't been seen anywhere on earth?

>The free market left to itself would fix most of it's own problems

I mean, to reason about what the free market will do IF it exists has no value.

The free market, even if it was imposed by some power for one second, would have to be forcibly sustained by human agents --namely corporations, consumers, workers and the government. Nothing tells us that it would, in fact history teaches us otherwise.

One might as well say: "If everybody always was pro peace and love, and never did anything bad, we would have world peace and love".

Of course, but the whole point is in how to achieve that. So, to say "the free market would fix most of it's own problems" has zero value, if the #1 problem is how to create and sustain a free market itself.

Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by philbarr on Wednesday May 02, 2012 @07:13AM (#3918458)
That is a fantastic rant about the open market. Do you mind if I use it and claim it as my own someday?
Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by mkr-hn on Wednesday May 02, 2012 @07:28AM (#3918511)
The rant is generic and uncompelling. I'm sure you can do better.
Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by kylebrown on Wednesday May 02, 2012 @01:42PM (#3920245)
as an alternative to a full-blown rant, just remind people that market fundamentalism died in the '08-'09 superbubble implosion. E.g. the new Dallas Fed report about enhancing "market discipline" and restoring "faith in market capitalism."
Re:Apple rejecting applications which use Dropbox by batista on Wednesday May 02, 2012 @10:03AM (#3919073)
Sure, knock yourself out.