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Re:Solid-state EV batteries now face "production hell" by coderenegade on Saturday January 27, 2024 @11:12PM (#39162498)
Do the EV measurements take into account the energy used to thermoregulate the battery during charging? They should, because there are conditions under which the battery won't charge at all, in which case the efficiency goes to zero.
Re:Solid-state EV batteries now face "production hell" by Retric on Sunday January 28, 2024 @12:05AM (#39162763)
That’s not directly relevant in terms of energy density. We can do an apples to apples comparison for the full lifecycle efficiency, but here gas comes off even worse.

Extracting, transporting, manufacturing, and distributing gas takes quite a lot of energy. ~30-50% of gas CO2 emissions occur before you burn it though exact number depends on the specific source etc. But what we care about is vehicle ranges etc not this wider picture.

Re:Solid-state EV batteries now face "production hell" by bbarnett on Sunday January 28, 2024 @09:25AM (#39166069)
Sonwhat you're saying, is that by stifling and restricting local oil drilling, and refining -> gas, we're hurting the environment. A lot.
Re:Solid-state EV batteries now face "production hell" by Retric on Sunday January 28, 2024 @10:34AM (#39166693)
Being local isn’t particularly relevant because there is such a wide range of transportation efficiency and different crude oil supplies involve differing amounts of flaring etc.
Re:Solid-state EV batteries now face "production hell" by bbarnett on Sunday January 28, 2024 @12:32PM (#39167843)
All the oil currently known, is going to be extracted. Any other concept is, I think, fantasy.

Thus, local is better.

Re:Solid-state EV batteries now face "production hell" by Retric on Sunday January 28, 2024 @12:50PM (#39168021)
There’s a great deal of oil that can’t be extracted for less than it costs to synthesize it. A deepwater oil rig isn’t going to sit around a well producing 1 barrel of oil a month.

So being local is again basically meaningless here.

Re:Solid-state EV batteries now face "production hell" by bbarnett on Sunday January 28, 2024 @01:07PM (#39168146)
Now now, that's not relevant, and you know it. Naturally I am referring to what can be extracted economically.
Re:Solid-state EV batteries now face "production hell" by Retric on Sunday January 28, 2024 @04:12PM (#39169857)
Ahh, but once you accept there’s economic limits the economies of scale define those limits.

The rise of EV’s will therefore strand more oil as smaller scale processing/distribution is less efficient. Being local to you doesn’t help because oil is transported to refineries before useful products are sent to you.

The crash continues to strand more production as refineries shut down.

Re:Solid-state EV batteries now face "production hell" by bbarnett on Sunday January 28, 2024 @04:56PM (#39170198)
The future is as it is, now is now. And local means closest viable, regardless.

It would seem that preventing local production and extraction for political reasons, would be a mistake. It would also seem that preventing pipelines would be too.

This makes sense. People are trying to stop a thing, via 100 paper cuts, instead of just stopping it. Meanwhile, this results in suboptimal production, which inceeases pollution.

Re:Solid-state EV batteries now face "production hell" by Retric on Sunday January 28, 2024 @07:12PM (#39171313)
Oil in the ground isn’t rotting, but it is finite so the logic isn’t so obvious. Especially because new local drilling has minimal impact on wholesale prices.

If you expect future prices to spike then the wise choice is to avoid drilling until you can maximize gains.

If you expect future prices to remain unchanged then the wise choice is to avoid harming your local environment and have other countries despoil the own.

Only if you expect future prices to tank does it become a good idea to extract while the prices remain high.

Re:Solid-state EV batteries now face "production hell" by bbarnett on Monday January 29, 2024 @09:16AM (#39176493)
Your discussion of pricing isn't necessarily wrong, although I haven't bothered to ponder your words, as it has zero to do with political bans on oil extraction.
Re:Solid-state EV batteries now face "production hell" by Retric on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @07:05AM (#39189126)
Politics is many people agreeing to do something for different reasons.
Re:Solid-state EV batteries now face "production hell" by dv_dt on Saturday January 27, 2024 @11:59PM (#39162728)
You must mean in very cold conditions, where gas vehicles also often have engine block heaters plugged in so you can start them?
Re:Solid-state EV batteries now face "production hell" by idiotsecant on Sunday January 28, 2024 @12:19AM (#39162838)
Those are a 'nice to have' but not a 'have to have' until it gets below -15 to -20f, which is unusual, at least in continental US.
Re:Solid-state EV batteries now face "production hell" by TylerE on Sunday January 28, 2024 @02:22AM (#39163276)
They're near, if not actually, universal in places like Canada and Scandinavia. Not exactly tiny markets.
Re:Solid-state EV batteries now face "production hell" by Xylakant on Sunday January 28, 2024 @03:17AM (#39163510)
Canada has roughly 40 million inhabitants, Scandinavia (if you include Finland) less than 30 million.

Even combined, that is pretty much exactly the population of France alone, or about 15 million less than Germany alone - and neither of those is exactly a huge country.

Canada and Scandinavia, on the global scale, are small markets.

Re:Solid-state EV batteries now face "production hell" by ben_w on Sunday January 28, 2024 @06:58AM (#39164831)
Re:Solid-state EV batteries now face "production hell" by namaria on Sunday January 28, 2024 @09:02AM (#39165834)
And how much of the world's purchasing power?
Re:Solid-state EV batteries now face "production hell" by ben_w on Sunday January 28, 2024 @09:27AM (#39166079)
Re:Solid-state EV batteries now face "production hell" by TylerE on Sunday January 28, 2024 @09:28AM (#39166091)
Now add Norway, Sweden, and Finland. The parts of Russia where the rich people live, too.
Re:Solid-state EV batteries now face "production hell" by ben_w on Sunday January 28, 2024 @09:49AM (#39166265)
> Now add Norway, Sweden, and Finland.

How about you do it? I'm getting bored of recreating the character of Sigourney Weaver > Gwen DeMarco > Lieutenant Tawny Madison in Galaxy Quest.

Hint: less than Canada even when combined, both population and GDP.

> The parts of Russia where the rich people live

Central London?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evgeny_Lebedev

Re:Solid-state EV batteries now face "production hell" by idiotsecant on Sunday January 28, 2024 @05:30PM (#39170482)
>> The parts of Russia where the rich people live

>Central London?

Just voting for this wasn't enough.

Re:Solid-state EV batteries now face "production hell" by Too on Sunday January 28, 2024 @09:07AM (#39165886)
Same small fraction of the world where thermoregulating the battery during charging is a concern for EVs.
Re:Solid-state EV batteries now face "production hell" by thebruce87m on Sunday January 28, 2024 @03:09AM (#39163480)
There was a lovely commenter claiming that they are not needed even at -40 here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39074333
Re:Solid-state EV batteries now face "production hell" by swiftcoder on Sunday January 28, 2024 @06:44AM (#39164739)
Certainly more of a problem for diesel cars (diesel starts to gel not much below freezing). However, if there's any level of condensation in your gasoline tank you do have to worry about the fuel lines developing ice crystals... I wouldn't like to bet my life on starting an off-the-shelf car without any preheaters in -40 degrees
Re:Solid-state EV batteries now face "production hell" by mlrtime on Sunday January 28, 2024 @09:20AM (#39166011)
I went down a small youtube rabbit hole one night. There are some youtube channels showing guys getting up at the crack of dawn and starting their cold engine diesel engines without block heaters.

It seems if you are sufficiently prepared they are not needed.

Re:Solid-state EV batteries now face "production hell" by idiotsecant on Sunday January 28, 2024 @05:40PM (#39170572)
It's true that just about any modern vehicle with a quality battery will start in -40°F , but oil distribution will be suboptimal and you'll put strain in cold, brittle places it shouldn't be. I guess 'need' is a strong word, but every time you start a vehicle in that kind of cold you do a tiny bit of damage to it. Keeping it a little warm during startup is really important for long term health.
Re:Solid-state EV batteries now face "production hell" by zitsarethecure on Sunday January 28, 2024 @09:41AM (#39166205)
A lot of cars also have remote starters that people use to precondition (warm up or cool down) their cars.
Re:Solid-state EV batteries now face "production hell" by Retric on Sunday January 28, 2024 @10:39AM (#39166730)
Or just as is often the case a garage.
Re:Solid-state EV batteries now face "production hell" by mort96 on Saturday January 27, 2024 @11:33PM (#39162610)
I can't imagine there's a lot of extra energy going to heat up the battery while charging? I'd guess the waste heat does the job everywhere except the very coldest climates.
Re:Solid-state EV batteries now face "production hell" by Rebelgecko on Sunday January 28, 2024 @12:09AM (#39162782)
It can be an issue if you're charging at like 6amps and it's way below freezing
Re:Solid-state EV batteries now face "production hell" by imtringued on Sunday January 28, 2024 @04:28AM (#39163923)
That doesn't result in zero energy efficiency. The energy efficiency is only zero when the heating is insufficient and then it is not the energy that you are putting into he battery that is the problem but the energy needed to keep it warm.
Re:Solid-state EV batteries now face "production hell" by coderenegade on Sunday January 28, 2024 @05:54AM (#39164412)
The energy required for charging is the energy input required to fill the battery, plus whatever additional energy is needed to condition the battery. If 50% of the energy you use for charging (which you pay for) goes towards conditioning the battery, then then the energy efficiency of the vehicle is 50% times whatever efficiency you get through the drivetrain. When it gets cold enough, all of the energy draw goes towards conditioning the battery, so the car doesn't charge at all. Since none of the input energy goes towards moving the vehicle, the efficiency is zero, though if you wait long enough it'll take a low value as the temperature increases and the vehicle begins to take charge. It's probably more correct to say that the energy efficiency of the vehicle approaches zero as the temperature drops.

This is different to a standard car, because losses during refueling are negligible, but losses in the drivetrain obviously aren't. And of course for both types of vehicle you have additional upstream effects, e.g. production and transportation of fuel versus production of electricity, production of the vehicle, etc.

The reason I raised the issue is because I hear a lot about well-to-wheels efficiency of BEVs, but I've never heard anyone take into account the effect that conditioning the battery has in certain climates. It's one thing to say that the well-to-wheels efficiency of a BEV is around 60% compared to 16% for ICEVs, but if you're neglecting a large multiplicative efficiency hit in your chain, things like hybrid electric vehicles suddenly compare a lot more favorably.

And if you're comparing mileage on the basis of miles per gallon using energy input at a pump or cable that you paid for, it seems like a reasonable question to ask. Is that mpg figure calculated using the energy of the battery, or the energy that was paid for?

Re:Solid-state EV batteries now face "production hell" by Retric on Sunday January 28, 2024 @10:38AM (#39166724)
Conditioning the battery isn’t a year round thing 20% more energy for 2 months a year is 1.7% efficiency loss across the full year. It’s also zero in a heated garage.

But again, as soon as you move up the chain on one car you need to move up the chain on the other or you’ll get as distorted picture of the tradeoffs.

Re:Solid-state EV batteries now face "production hell" by coderenegade on Sunday January 28, 2024 @03:28PM (#39169503)
I acknowledged upstream effects, but this is specifically about accurately accounting for the energy input required to run the car. If I purchase X units of energy, whether it be in the form of fuel or electricity, how much of that energy is actually going into the battery, and how is it affected by climate? It's one thing to get an answer from California where it doesn't really get cold, quite another if you rely on on-street parking in, say, New York.
Re:Solid-state EV batteries now face "production hell" by Retric on Sunday January 28, 2024 @07:21PM (#39171377)
It’s still dramatically in favor of EV’s.

NYC doesn’t really get cold enough to matter, average temperatures in January are above freezing. So you’re really talking about a subset of unusually cold days where it’s even slightly an issue.