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Re:NSA Buys Americans' Internet Data Without Warrants, Uncla... by EA-3167 on Thursday January 25, 2024 @07:37PM (#39137491)
Maybe this is a naive question, but if the information is for sale, why would the government need a warrant?
Re:NSA Buys Americans' Internet Data Without Warrants, Uncla... by happytiger on Thursday January 25, 2024 @08:34PM (#39137911)
Fourth Amendment.

Here’s the answer in depth:

https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/when-the-government-buy...

Re:NSA Buys Americans' Internet Data Without Warrants, Uncla... by edgyquant on Thursday January 25, 2024 @09:17PM (#39138207)
The fourth amendment is not about buying things everyone else is able to buy
Re:NSA Buys Americans' Internet Data Without Warrants, Uncla... by happytiger on Thursday January 25, 2024 @09:23PM (#39138240)
You should consider reading the article.
Re:NSA Buys Americans' Internet Data Without Warrants, Uncla... by MarkMarine on Thursday January 25, 2024 @10:52PM (#39138770)
Really truly hate agreeing with brookings, but they are right here.

I find it interesting where the line between freedom and acceptable government intervention seems to be for many people. There must be an aspect of “what do I have to worry about” that doesn’t kick in until people explicitly see what they have to worry about looming.

Re:NSA Buys Americans' Internet Data Without Warrants, Uncla... by swells34 on Friday January 26, 2024 @02:27AM (#39139765)
It's the classic "I have nothing to hide" argument. Which immediately breaks down when you realize that, with enough information about someone, you can implicate them in something illegal. A case can be built against them, a narrative spun, and an innocent person spending their lives locked up. This happens constantly in the US judicial system, though I believe it is often unintentional, just human bias doing it's thing.
Re:NSA Buys Americans' Internet Data Without Warrants, Uncla... by Zanni on Thursday January 25, 2024 @11:12PM (#39138883)
I've read the article, and it addresses the point vaguely at best:

"The standard argument in favor of unfettered government purchases of private data is that such data is commercially available, and so anyone should be able to purchase it, including government officers."

Agreed.

"... while government officials can generally purchase items available to the public without constitutional restriction, sensitive private data about cell phone users isn’t actually available to the public."

What? I may be misunderstanding, but this looks like a deliberate attempt to conflate two concerns: publicly available data for sale and sensitive private data. I don't see any argument here against the government buying publicly available data.

Re:NSA Buys Americans' Internet Data Without Warrants, Uncla... by fullspectrumdev on Friday January 26, 2024 @04:47AM (#39140638)
Just because it is for sale, doesn’t mean it’s for sale to just about anyone - a lot of the brokers that collate, match, and enrich this data choose to only sell their product to government agencies.

Because it’s “on the market” it’s deemed “public”, but that market only is open to governments.

Re:NSA Buys Americans' Internet Data Without Warrants, Uncla... by edgyquant on Friday January 26, 2024 @03:46AM (#39140227)
You should consider reading the rules
Re:NSA Buys Americans' Internet Data Without Warrants, Uncla... by happytiger on Friday January 26, 2024 @04:19AM (#39140458)
Apologies. Not my intention to be rude.
Re:NSA Buys Americans' Internet Data Without Warrants, Uncla... by paulryanrogers on Thursday January 25, 2024 @07:41PM (#39137530)
If the government is doing it as an end run around the fourth amendment then that should be illegal.
Re:NSA Buys Americans' Internet Data Without Warrants, Uncla... by halJordan on Thursday January 25, 2024 @08:08PM (#39137720)
But they are though? I agree that intrinsic privacy rights should prevent this. But the fact is this data is freely available, it's public information, the individual has released it appropriately. The problem isn't the govt using public data, the problem is that the data is public. You simply cannot have a privacy concern when you've agreed for it to not be private in the first place.
Re:NSA Buys Americans' Internet Data Without Warrants, Uncla... by h-c-c on Thursday January 25, 2024 @08:48PM (#39138012)
It's not freely available, it's for sale. And just because private data is for sale does make it public.
Re:NSA Buys Americans' Internet Data Without Warrants, Uncla... by pixl97 on Thursday January 25, 2024 @08:54PM (#39138056)
It's private property that happens to be data. The fact it's allowed to be collected and sold to anyone much less the government.
Re:NSA Buys Americans' Internet Data Without Warrants, Uncla... by nobodyandproud on Thursday January 25, 2024 @11:31PM (#39138972)
Which means that private consent in contract for data collection here is meaningless.

Similar to how one cannot sign away one’s constitutional rights in a contract.

Re:NSA Buys Americans' Internet Data Without Warrants, Uncla... by nerdile on Thursday January 25, 2024 @08:09PM (#39137724)
Why would it be legal for a person or company to buy this publicly offered information but illegal for the government?
Re:NSA Buys Americans' Internet Data Without Warrants, Uncla... by paulryanrogers on Thursday January 25, 2024 @09:10PM (#39138163)
The government is bound by the fourth amendment.

Regardless, if people cannot have privacy because companies can coerce and buy so much information about them, then that too is a violation that should be illegal. (For example because it's increasingly impractical to live without a smart phone and cell tower connections, or avoid iTags.)

Re:NSA Buys Americans' Internet Data Without Warrants, Uncla... by rpdillon on Thursday January 25, 2024 @10:31PM (#39138609)
The third-party doctrine is a loophole in the fourth amendment.

> The third-party doctrine is a United States legal doctrine that holds that people who voluntarily give information to third parties—such as banks, phone companies, internet service providers (ISPs), and e-mail servers—have "no reasonable expectation of privacy" in that information. A lack of privacy protection allows the United States government to obtain information from third parties without a legal warrant and without otherwise complying with the Fourth Amendment prohibition against search and seizure without probable cause and a judicial search warrant.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_doctrine

Re:NSA Buys Americans' Internet Data Without Warrants, Uncla... by edgyquant on Thursday January 25, 2024 @09:17PM (#39138201)
It is not a violation of the fourth amendment to buy information you’ve granted to parties to sell. Hacking your router and gathering the information that way would be illegal, this is just buying data like a thousand other businesses do.
Re:NSA Buys Americans' Internet Data Without Warrants, Uncla... by lmm on Friday January 26, 2024 @12:19AM (#39139187)
> The government is bound by the fourth amendment.

The fourth amendment is a restriction on the government's ability to search or seize - things that a regular private entity is not permitted to do at all, that represent an enormously abusable power. I don't see how buying public information fits into that.

> if people cannot have privacy because companies can coerce and buy so much information about them, then that too is a violation that should be illegal.

Perhaps. But looking to ban the government from buying that information on the open market is putting the cart before the horse. If the problem is our private information being sold, let's look for a fix for that that would protect us from large companies or wealthy individuals with a grudge, rather than focusing narrowly on the government.

Re:NSA Buys Americans' Internet Data Without Warrants, Uncla... by edgyquant on Thursday January 25, 2024 @09:16PM (#39138196)
That doesn’t make any sense at all.
Re:NSA Buys Americans' Internet Data Without Warrants, Uncla... by legitster on Thursday January 25, 2024 @07:51PM (#39137600)
The fact that it is with or without warrants is almost completely irrelevant in the article itself. The headline is misleading.
Re:NSA Buys Americans' Internet Data Without Warrants, Uncla... by leoh on Thursday January 25, 2024 @11:52PM (#39139069)
The fact that this data is available at all is such a fail.
Re:NSA Buys Americans' Internet Data Without Warrants, Uncla... by add-sub-mul-div on Friday January 26, 2024 @12:04AM (#39139129)
Right, but raising a panic by saying the government has this data or China gets this data is a distraction from the real issue, that such a vast marketplace exists openly for anyone to shop.
Re:NSA Buys Americans' Internet Data Without Warrants, Uncla... by leoh on Friday January 26, 2024 @05:00PM (#39149181)
Can't say I disagree.