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Re:Framework Laptop 16 Delivers Great Linux Support and Perf... by esskay on Tuesday January 23, 2024 @11:08AM (#39105230)
Are there any plans to offer larger batteries and/or improve battery efficiency? From what I've read battery life is still an issue many seem to be having.

With the greatest respect it's 2024, a laptop should be capable of 8 hours at the very minimum for a mid range model but I'm seeing a lot of people getting sub 2 hours.

The 16 ticks all the boxes for me but I've held off for now as having the possibility of worse battery life than my old 2015 mac isn't as you can imagine making for a compelling upgrade.

Re:Framework Laptop 16 Delivers Great Linux Support and Perf... by hecanjog on Tuesday January 23, 2024 @11:12AM (#39105280)
I'm surprised to be reading that, honestly. I have a first batch framework 13 without any upgrades and I spent the summer working with it outside. Nothing super crazy, 4-6 hour stretches in the park, but I never remember cutting it close with the battery. As long as we're sharing anecdotes, I'm happy with the battery life FWIW...

Edit: I'm running linux. I don't recall doing any battery optimization but maybe I installed or configured something a few years ago? I don't change things often.

Another edit: I just checked and I do have TLP installed!

Re:Framework Laptop 16 Delivers Great Linux Support and Perf... by Maskawanian on Tuesday January 23, 2024 @11:19AM (#39105373)
I love framework's mission. I would not change the past on buying a framework. To provide a counter example, quite often I open my bag to find that my Framework 13 has cooked itself in the bag. The battery life, and the bad intel sleep management have been a thorn in my side since I got it. But the power management does leave much to be desired.

Given LTT's review of the laptop, it may be best to wait for the 2nd revision of this which hopefully will deal with the deck flex and screen consistency issues.

Re:Framework Laptop 16 Delivers Great Linux Support and Perf... by leeman2016 on Tuesday January 23, 2024 @11:48AM (#39105864)
You're not alone with the cooking laptop in a bag running Linux issue. I had those in the past with Dell/Toshiba laptops in the past.
Re:Framework Laptop 16 Delivers Great Linux Support and Perf... by buildbot on Tuesday January 23, 2024 @01:10PM (#39107169)
Dell Windows laptops will also cook themselves. (For example: https://www.dell.com/community/en/conversations/xps/dell-957...)

Macbooks are the only device I would trust to not light a bag on fire…

Re:Framework Laptop 16 Delivers Great Linux Support and Perf... by bombcar on Tuesday January 23, 2024 @03:25PM (#39109228)
Anecdata but I've had a MacBook do the cooking once, but it thermal throttled itself so it just got warm, not super hot.
Re:Framework Laptop 16 Delivers Great Linux Support and Perf... by kennydude on Tuesday January 23, 2024 @04:51PM (#39110443)
Yeah I once had my old Macbook Air get insanely hot to the point it felt dangerous. I left it in the sink (dry and in case it blew up it would be somewhere non-flammable) to calm down and it was fine a few hours later.
Re:Framework Laptop 16 Delivers Great Linux Support and Perf... by seanp2k2 on Tuesday January 23, 2024 @06:12PM (#39111314)
It's funny but sad how this has literally been an issue for 20+ years and yet still no one can fix it. I've tried with many laptops, both Windows and Linux, and the only one that can reliably go into a backpack with >90% charge and come out after a flight with >80% is a Macbook, and that's also been true for more than a decade.
Re:Framework Laptop 16 Delivers Great Linux Support and Perf... by callalex on Wednesday January 24, 2024 @01:16AM (#39114227)
It does feel like Linux sleep is nearly impossible to do well. My go-to example of jaw-dropping, industry-leading Linux hardware support is the Steam Deck. They deserve lots of praise for the monumental effort and achievement to make that product work as well as it does. The sleep functionality is trash though, even after they put a ton of work in.

It’s excellent in that I can suspend any software and have it come back to life exactly the way I expect (no small feat!) and it’s excellent that it never cooks itself when unattended in a case or bag, but it is total trash that it eats 20-30% battery a day while “off”. That’s not a bug, but expected behavior. It’s just not what I have come to expect from a modern computer, and portable Macs haven’t behaved that way since about 2005.

Re:Framework Laptop 16 Delivers Great Linux Support and Perf... by dannyobrien on Wednesday January 24, 2024 @07:15PM (#39124500)
my only datapoint here is that I have a Thinkpad X1 running Debian that doesn't cook, and keeps a charge, but I have no idea how I pulled that off
Re:Framework Laptop 16 Delivers Great Linux Support and Perf... by pomian on Tuesday January 23, 2024 @07:01PM (#39111748)
Is this going to sleep? Or hibernate? I found that most notebooks(under Windows) are horrible at "sleeping", but if you enable hibernate, then the notebook can last days, without losing charge. (Dell, HP, Asus, etc.)
Re:Framework Laptop 16 Delivers Great Linux Support and Perf... by xarope on Tuesday January 23, 2024 @10:18PM (#39113198)
Another counterpoint, I have that same not-suspending-thus-cooking-in-my-bag issue often with a thinkpad P14s running windows 10 (intel i7-1270p) .

However, my (5+ yrs old?) T480s running linuxmint never does it (i5-8250u). YMMV

Re:Framework Laptop 16 Delivers Great Linux Support and Perf... by jwells89 on Tuesday January 23, 2024 @11:16AM (#39105332)
I think the expectation for battery life for most these days is closer to what can be found on e.g. M-series MacBooks or in the x86 world, HP Dragonfly and some ASUS Zenbooks, which range between 14 and 22 hours.
Re:Framework Laptop 16 Delivers Great Linux Support and Perf... by AnthonyMouse on Tuesday January 23, 2024 @04:11PM (#39109902)
Battery life is inherently a trade off against performance and weight.

It's also a trade off against competence, because you can kill the battery right quick if drivers don't idle things properly, but even after you address that you still have the other thing.

Which makes 16+ hour battery life an odd choice for most people. Who uses their laptop for 16 contiguous hours with no opportunity to charge? It could have been lighter or faster.

Naturally Framework has the potential to make it flexible: Have a dual-use bay where one of the options is a second battery, and then if you want it you take the weight/battery life trade off in favor of battery life, and if not the machine can be lighter.

Re:Framework Laptop 16 Delivers Great Linux Support and Perf... by jwells89 on Tuesday January 23, 2024 @05:55PM (#39111143)
Long battery life isn’t so much about contiguous use as it is about not needing to think about charging as often and being able to not carry a laptop charger brick on excursions. It also lets you still have “normal” laptop life left over after periods of high-intensity usage.

Also generally speaking more efficient laptops are cooler which is generally a quality welcome in a device sometimes used in a person’s lap.

Re:Framework Laptop 16 Delivers Great Linux Support and Perf... by noirbot on Tuesday January 23, 2024 @06:44PM (#39111603)
Yea, the Framework's battery issue for me is mostly that there is almost literally no point I could ever trust not having a power outlet nearby with the cable. I've had times where the computer, while fully shut down, loses 30% of the battery life in a few hours.

Sure, it's the bulk of a Macbook Air, but I often leave that open, with the screen on, running VMs for work all day without it being plugged in. I expect that any time I open it, I'll have at least 30-60 minutes of use before I need to plug it in. My Framework, more often than not, tells me it's about to emergency shut down as soon as I log in.

Re:Framework Laptop 16 Delivers Great Linux Support and Perf... by throwaway2037 on Tuesday January 23, 2024 @08:11PM (#39112362)
> I've had times where the computer, while fully shut down, loses 30% of the battery life in a few hours.

Did you report this issue to Framework? Do other users have similar issues?

Re:Framework Laptop 16 Delivers Great Linux Support and Perf... by AnthonyMouse on Tuesday January 23, 2024 @08:57PM (#39112691)
> being able to not carry a laptop charger brick on excursions. It also lets you still have “normal” laptop life left over after periods of high-intensity usage.

This is just the same trade off. For a given level of efficiency you could have put in a smaller battery and offset the weight of a second battery / charging brick that you would then only need when you need many hours of battery life.

> Also generally speaking more efficient laptops are cooler which is generally a quality welcome in a device sometimes used in a person’s lap.

That isn't really part of the trade off either. The faster ones generally don't have worse performance per watt -- they're often better because they have more cores with lower clock speeds. You get 100% more cores with 75% more performance for 50% more power consumption. For the same load they generate less heat. See also "race to idle".

They only generate more heat in absolute terms if you put more load on them than the slower alternative would have been able to handle.

Re:Framework Laptop 16 Delivers Great Linux Support and Perf... by sandworm101 on Tuesday January 23, 2024 @08:41PM (#39112562)
Me. Road trips. Bad weather. Airports without charging options. 16h would be a bad day but it isnt outside the possible. Also, power outages and when i just forget to charge overnight.
Re:Framework Laptop 16 Delivers Great Linux Support and Perf... by esskay on Wednesday January 24, 2024 @07:43AM (#39116588)
I'd disagree that its a tradeoff of weight. The macbook air is an incredibly light weight laptop yet still pushes 18hrs battery life on the 13" model, even the 14" pro at 22 hours is still lighter than most laptops.

The weight isnt the problem. It's the poor optimisation of hardware and software.

Re:Framework Laptop 16 Delivers Great Linux Support and Perf... by emptysongglass on Tuesday January 23, 2024 @05:19PM (#39110762)
I have an 11th gen and have terrible battery life. Always have. I would not describe the Linux support from Framework as sterling but bad battery life remains the same between my Linux and Windows sides if a little better on Windows.
Re:Framework Laptop 16 Delivers Great Linux Support and Perf... by nrp on Tuesday January 23, 2024 @11:12AM (#39105279)
For reference, here is Notebookcheck's review stating 9 hours of real world battery life in web browsing (though on Windows): https://www.notebookcheck.net/Radeon-RX-7700S-performance-de...

For Linux, when following our installation guides for power optimization, power consumption with integrated graphics should be similar.

Edit: Tom's Hardware similarly reports 9 hours on Windows (with Graphics Module installed): https://www.tomshardware.com/laptops/framework-laptop-16-rev....

Re:Framework Laptop 16 Delivers Great Linux Support and Perf... by oDot on Tuesday January 23, 2024 @07:29PM (#39112003)
Can you elaborate more about the tradeoffs here?

I'm in the same boat, looking for as light as possible with a much battery as possible, was banking on the 16 yet we get 9 hours instead of (an assumed) ~10-11, and 2.1/2.4kg.

Somehow the Thinkpad Extreme X1 and the new Zephyrus G16 have similar CPUs, dGPUs, a >90Whr battery and they weigh less than 2kg.

Where's most the weight going? Will I be able to buy a FW 16 and eliminate weight to achieve similar specs? Literally asking about using a "stripped down version".

Re:Framework Laptop 16 Delivers Great Linux Support and Perf... by theossuary on Tuesday January 23, 2024 @08:04PM (#39112307)
Frankly that weight is from the modularity of the system. To build something repairable/modular requires scaffolding this isn't necessary if you solder and glue everything together; that's why companies like Apple do it. You are giving up some things in order to get the promised repairability of a framework.

If you want the lightest laptop with the longest battery life, you'd get a Mac. If you want the best bang for your buck go with a basic Ultrabook. If your willing to have a bit more weight, size and a bit less battery in exchange for repairability/customization, that's the niche framework fits well.

Re:Framework Laptop 16 Delivers Great Linux Support and Perf... by ParetoOptimal on Tuesday January 23, 2024 @08:07PM (#39112331)
One huge caveat that makes me most unhappy with my framework 13 purchase is power draw on HDMI BIOS bug gives me 1-2 hours battery life.

As a result, its beginning to resemble a paperweight.

Re:Framework Laptop 16 Delivers Great Linux Support and Perf... by pella on Tuesday January 23, 2024 @01:00PM (#39107024)
> Are there any plans to offer larger batteries and/or improve battery efficiency?

discussion: https://community.frame.work/t/simple-extra-battery-for-the-...

Re:Framework Laptop 16 Delivers Great Linux Support and Perf... by cassepipe on Tuesday January 23, 2024 @01:51PM (#39107818)
Very likely. They already announced recently a better battery for the 13 models so I don't see why they wouldn't if they have the opportunity
Re:Framework Laptop 16 Delivers Great Linux Support and Perf... by TkTech on Tuesday January 23, 2024 @02:55PM (#39108832)
Battery is what prevents me from taking my 13 framework with me when traveling. I spend most of my time in pycharm, rebuild docker containers constantly, and have celery + postgres + redis running full tilt. The fan is running constantly, it's always burning hot, and the battery lasts under 2 hours (if I'm really lucky).

Previous generation Macbook running the same workload last for 6+ hours.

That said, for someone who isn't going to be running every core at 100% all the time, I'd still recommend it.

Edit: Oh, and under arch with the latest kernel, I find many monitors that cannot display video output over usb-c, like the Dell U4919DW.

Re:Framework Laptop 16 Delivers Great Linux Support and Perf... by nathancahill on Tuesday January 23, 2024 @05:08PM (#39110645)
Mildly curious what kind of task requires that usage profile on a laptop (in general but especially while traveling?)
Re:Framework Laptop 16 Delivers Great Linux Support and Perf... by adastra22 on Tuesday January 23, 2024 @07:46PM (#39112153)
You don’t dev on a laptop?
Re:Framework Laptop 16 Delivers Great Linux Support and Perf... by TkTech on Tuesday January 23, 2024 @09:02PM (#39112709)
When I occasionally go into the office it's a ~4 hour round trip by train, and I work during that time. It's simply running a dev environment.
Re:Framework Laptop 16 Delivers Great Linux Support and Perf... by callalex on Wednesday January 24, 2024 @01:27AM (#39114284)
I think you need to clarify your question because the comment you are replying to clearly states the workload they have?
Re:Framework Laptop 16 Delivers Great Linux Support and Perf... by olddustytrail on Tuesday January 23, 2024 @05:19PM (#39110754)
At the end of the day, all the work a CPU does turns into heat. If you want less heat you need the CPU to do fewer calculations.

If you have processes pegging CPUs at 100% and you don't want them to, then use a cgroup to limit their CPU time.

Re:Framework Laptop 16 Delivers Great Linux Support and Perf... by callalex on Wednesday January 24, 2024 @01:30AM (#39114297)
>If you want less heat you need the CPU to do fewer calculations.

You do understand that different machines can do the same calculations with different amounts of energy, right?

Re:Framework Laptop 16 Delivers Great Linux Support and Perf... by mixmastamyk on Wednesday January 24, 2024 @03:13AM (#39114889)
We all understand battery life isn't framework's strong point.

Still, if your dev environment is using CPU constantly you're likely doing something inefficiently. Redis and postgres don't do much unless you ask them to, for example.

Re:Framework Laptop 16 Delivers Great Linux Support and Perf... by unethical_ban on Tuesday January 23, 2024 @04:38PM (#39110253)
I don't know about my 100-0 battery time. What I know is that suspend on Fedora/Framework is *not* valid for overnight or longer sessions. My battery will drain 50% in two days on suspend, vs weeks for a MacBook.

I now make sure to save my work and shut the laptop off completely at the end of a session.