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Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by xwowsersx on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @04:54PM (#39034061)
I'm not sure we are living in a unipolar world anymore. We are, at the very least, heading towards a multipolar world with the US, China, and Russia as the three great powers.
Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by omginternets on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @05:08PM (#39034223)
I don't think anyone seriously considers Russia as an emerging superpower. There's a difference between being an international player and being a superpower.
Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by cpursley on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @06:00PM (#39034832)
Why not? Their economy is growing (despite being the most sanctioned nation on earth and cut off from SWIFT) and they are integrating with several other regional players. They are energy and food self-sufficient, have a relatively large and well educated population, launch payloads into space on the regular, export complex things like nuclear reactors. On the military side, they are one of the only that could sink an entire carrier battle group or an entire city in a flash.
Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by ric2b on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @07:30PM (#39035748)
Their economy is not growing, they're just dragging people out of unemployment because they're in a war economy. That makes GDP numbers look good but in reality they're getting their citizens killed and using a bunch of production capacity to build vehicles and weapons that get destroyed a few months later, they're getting poorer.
Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by cpursley on Thursday January 18, 2024 @06:06AM (#39040387)
Yes, their economy is growing and it's been widely reported. GDP PPP is now on par with Germany. And that's even after becoming the most sanctioned country on earth and cut off from SWIFT.

Regarding "unemployment" - they've got historically low unemployment and an acute labor shortage at the moment. Also very widely reported.

Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by ric2b on Sunday January 21, 2024 @08:39AM (#39078329)
Yes, those are all results of war economies. It looks really good on paper but such generic numbers like GDP aren't that useful when comparing very different types of economies.

Russia has lost a significant portion of their export customers and is now losing a lot of productive capacity to keep the war going.

Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by ric2b on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @07:26PM (#39035697)
Their economy is not growing, that's just GDP being boosted on paper by a war economy, as usual.

Dragging a bunch of people out of unemployment to go die in trenches or to build IFV's that get blown up 2 weeks later makes your GDP larger but your citizens poorer.

Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by nradov on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @07:45PM (#39035893)
Russia has a shrinking population. Their demographic distribution is among the worst. Their higher education system is a mess, and in most ways has actually declined since the collapse of the USSR.

On the military side, their ICBMs can still destroy cities. But their ability to take out a carrier strike force no longer exists at a credible level: some of the key links in the kill chain barely exist any more. They have no real expeditionary capability and can't project power much beyond their immediate borders.

Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by cpursley on Thursday January 18, 2024 @06:14AM (#39040426)
Their population has mostly stabilized (still declining, but not at previous rates) and their demographics are better than many Western European countries and certainly better that the rest of Eastern Europe.

> their ability to take out a carrier strike force

A Project 22350 could absolutely disable a carrier strike group:

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/05/europe/russia-warship-hyperso...

And that's ignoring their new sub lineup, which also field Zircon's among other systems.

Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by Intralexical on Thursday January 18, 2024 @12:23AM (#39038220)
Most of the things you mentioned are leftovers from the Soviet days, and are presently in decline.

> Their economy is growing

As the other commenters said, that's a war economy, plus some creative bookkeeping/regulation.

> and they are integrating with several other regional players.

The past few years have shown the CSTO¹, EEU², CIS³, etc. are a joke.

> They are energy and food self-sufficient

So are Canada, Brazil, Australia, Indonesia…

> relatively large and well educated population

Aging and dying. "Demographic crisis". Same for Japan, but at least Japan's doing better in most other metrics.

> launch payloads into space on the regular

"Regular", in the sense that the launch rate collapsed by over 80% in the late 1980s, and hasn't recovered⁴, even as the US and PRC have been exploding.

> export complex things like nuclear reactors.

So do Germany, France, Canada, the Netherlands— Most advanced economies, really.

> On the military side, they are one of the only that could sink an entire carrier battle group or an entire city in a flash.

Their flagship needs a tugboat following for when it bursts into flames⁵. They've built a grand total of 36 "5th-generation" combat aircraft, which are apparently less advanced⁶ than most countries' newer 4th-gen fighters⁷. They've even used up their stockpiles of tens of thousands of ancient tanks (at least the ones that hadn't already been rusted and looted irreparably) at a rate⁸ they'll never be able to replace.

Nuclear weapons aren't hard if you have a civilian nuclear energy sector. Rockets are old tech unless you're looking at non-chemical propulsion, reusable boosters, etc. Lots of countries could do those things within a couple years if needed, but we don't because they don't usually make enough sense unless you're already a superpower in other ways⁹.

Russia does a large number of flashy things, but it's for prestige, momentum, and autarky, and they can do less and less of it each year, rather than expressing any actual economic power.

They probably could have done quite well by focusing on tech/cultural, manufacturing, and resource exports. But wealthy nations won't buy from them now they've gone mask-off with the genocidal aggression, and their civil society is too corrupt to the core to fix itself.

---

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Nagorno-Karabakh_War#Ru...

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_Economic_Union#Econom...

3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93Commonwealth_o...

4. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1327132/payloads-launche...

5. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_aircraft_carrier_Admir...

6. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-57#Stealth

7. https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/stealth-aircra...

8. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/08/09/russian-ta...

9. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_latency

Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by cpursley on Thursday January 18, 2024 @06:50AM (#39040646)
> plus some creative bookkeeping/regulation.

The economic growth measurements are by Western institutions. Considering they're cut off from SWIFT and the most sanctioned and demonized nation on earth, they're actually doing pretty well (remember, they were supposed to completely collapse like a house of cards).

> CSTO¹, EEU², CIS³, etc. are a joke

BRICs combined GDP is larger than the G7, and growing. Sans Russia and China, that's where the future population growth (and economic opportunities) are.

> Canada, Brazil, Australia, Indonesia

Brazil and Indonesia are absolutely up and coming major powers.

> Aging and dying. "Demographic crisis".

While still declining, their demographic situation has largely stabilized. It's better than the rest of Eastern Europe and even better than many Western European countries.

> "Regular", in the sense that the launch rate collapsed by over 80%

In the 1980s it was the USSR. We're talking about just Russia, a much smaller population and economy. And they launched at least 20 large payloads just last year, including a number of military sats.

> Germany, France, Canada, the Netherlands

Yes, you're making my point.

> Their flagship needs a tugboat

An old aircraft carrier is not their "flagship"; NATO ships also age out. Look into Project 22350 and Yasen class subs. Both carry Zircons and could disable a CBG.

> They've built a grand total of 36 "5th-generation" combat aircraft

If you're talking about the Su-57, it only went into serial production this year (2024) and their prototypes already have more air-to-air kills than the F-22 (via the R-37 which out ranges anything in NATO inventory).

Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by macspoofing on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @05:14PM (#39034305)
>We are, at the very least, heading towards a multipolar world with the US, China, and Russia as the three great powers.

US, EU, China, India.

Russia is a big country by size and resources, so it will be important, but it is a small (and getting smaller) country by population size and economy.

Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by cpursley on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @06:09PM (#39034922)
Their economy is actually expanding both in terms of GDP. And GDP PPP (now on par with Germany, which is in major industrial decline). It’s public information and pretty well covered by business and economic publications. Their biggest economic issue right now is an acute labor shortage.
Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by dkjaudyeqooe on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @05:21PM (#39034392)
Unless you are looking narrowly at nuke counts, Russia is not a great power. It's economy is propped up by oil and gas, and that's in question going forward, it is inefficient and outside of primary products it doesn't produce much of anything anyone wants. Its military has been exposed as a paper tiger and even the nukes can't be guaranteed to work these days.

China has the economic and manufacturing clout and is building up its military, but outside of the 'Global South' and various needy countries it has little soft power.

The US has stumbled somewhat mostly due to the overreaction to 9/11 and Bush's disastrous presidency, followed by the overcorrection of the Obama and Biden presidencies. But it still has the biggest and most powerful military, and NATO has been shocked out of its long complacency.

What the US has going for it is the possibility of renewal and reinvention, that is its strength and its enduring power. The US will keep on innovating, hopefully also in the political realm, and will retain global leadership. That's assuming that the Trump led Republican nihilist suicide cult doesn't destroy it first.

Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by cpursley on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @06:15PM (#39034975)
The Russian economy has been diversifying away from oil and gas for a decade and is close to the US in terms of percentage of the economy. They produce about as much steel as the US with less than half the population, a wide variety of other vital raw inputs. They’re a massive food producer and also export complex things like nuclear reactors, rockets, fighter jets.
Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by mensetmanusman on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @05:48PM (#39034691)
Russia can punch above its weight because it has more people willing to die for the country in physical battle. Might makes right in realpolitik, especially in a multipolar world.
Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by dkjaudyeqooe on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @07:00PM (#39035456)
I don't think literal cannon fodder scares anyone, and doesn't represent any definition of 'might'.
Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by cpursley on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @06:18PM (#39035020)
Opposed to metaphysical battle?
Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by mensetmanusman on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @07:21PM (#39035651)
I guess if larping online is a metaphysical battle :)
Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by XorNot on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @05:54PM (#39034762)
The idea that massed infantry accomplishes much of anything is presently on vivid display for the failure of thinking that it is in Ukraine.
Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by rainworld on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @06:11PM (#39034932)
You know who’s nukes demonstratedly aren’t guaranteed to work these days? That’s right, the US’s: https://www.military.com/daily-news/2023/11/02/minuteman-iii...
Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by boeingUH60 on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @04:57PM (#39034101)
Remove Russia from that list…the Ukraine war has shown that the Russian military are chest-beating clowns tainted by massive corruption and incompetence.

I kinda suspect China is the same, but we’re yet to see, and hopefully never see any invasion of Taiwan..

Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by pharmakom on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @05:03PM (#39034161)
USA is a large closed economy. China is a large open economy. I’m simplifying, but the bottom line is China definitely doesn’t want a Cold War scenario.
Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by omginternets on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @05:09PM (#39034238)
By what measure is China an open economy? That flies in the face of their long history of currency manipulation and explicit protectionist policy.
Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by spacebanana7 on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @05:59PM (#39034817)
I believe GP means “open” in the sense of having a high degree of trade with the rest of the world.

The US economy has more of a closed loop in that it consumes much of what it produces.

China on the other hand imports most essential commodities and pays for them with the proceeds of exports.

Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by Tommstein on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @07:36PM (#39035807)
> USA is a large closed economy. China is a large open economy. I’m simplifying, . . . .

Yes, "simplifying" to the point of getting it completely backwards.

Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by boeingUH60 on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @05:07PM (#39034214)
I think so too, but we should also understand that authoritarians are not rational.

Before February 2022, I would have bet a big sum on Putin never authorizing a full-scale Ukraine invasion. There was just too much to lose and too little to gain theoretically…yet he did it anyways.

Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by cpursley on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @06:24PM (#39035087)
There wasn’t a full scale invasion. So far, it’s been pretty limited in scope. Iraq was a full scale invasion for comparison. And Gaza most certainly is full scale - perhaps you could even label that one total war.
Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by nerdix on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @06:52PM (#39035375)
It absolutely was a full scale invasion. It just failed.
Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by cpursley on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @06:53PM (#39035380)
How has it failed? Aren’t the Russians nearly in control of all the territory they set out to take?
Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by trust_bt_verify on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @07:13PM (#39035565)
No, they set out to take the Kiev in 3 days. They never got close. It was a spectacular failure based on the power imbalance between the two countries.
Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by cpursley on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @07:21PM (#39035656)
Oh? And where did you hear that regarding taking Kiev in days?
Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by trust_bt_verify on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @10:33PM (#39037409)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Kyiv_convoy

But I guess you are right on one point, Russia knew how weak their armed forces are and doubted themselves so heavily they never said it out loud. It was just the rest of the world that finally saw what a paper tiger Putin's forces are. This really doesn't help your argument that they are in the running to be a world power one day.

Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by cpursley on Thursday January 18, 2024 @06:00AM (#39040346)
FYI the "3 day" thing actually came from General Milley: https://www.foxnews.com/us/gen-milley-says-kyiv-could-fall-w...

Also, from your linked Wikipedia:

"The convoy stalled 8 days into the war, at approximately 30 kilometers (19 mi) from the center of the city of Kyiv; as of 7 March 2022, according to U.S. defense officials, the column had not moved at all for a few days."

Isn't it interesting how those "stalled convoy" dates line up with these "peace" negotiations (and that Ukraine didn't burn them Road of Death style when they very easily could have)?:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_negotiations_in_the_Russ...

Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by dralley on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @06:39PM (#39035227)
Just because it's not literally "total war", does not make it limited in scope.
Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by cpursley on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @06:44PM (#39035281)
Well, it is limited in scope and they literally stated their territorial objectives when they set out. Full scale is mobilizing your entire economy towards the war effort and calling up millions. And it’s taking out the opposing sides military and civilian leadership and all of their critical infrastructure. That’s full scale. I really hope we don’t see full scale.
Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by dralley on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @10:36PM (#39037436)
I believe they "started" with claiming that statements that the they were about to invade Ukraine were absurd lies, followed shortly later with claims they would control the entire country in three days along with some maps that included Moldova, followed shortly thereafter with lots of nuclear saber rattling when things started going south.

There have also been dozens of assassination attempts against Ukraine's civilian and military leadership, and against Russia's as well, some of which have been successful. The fact that most attempts don't work out doesn't mean it's not happening.

Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by cpursley on Thursday January 18, 2024 @06:01AM (#39040355)
> entire country in three days

> dozens of assassination attempts

> lots of nuclear saber rattling

Sources, please.

Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by breckenedge on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @05:57PM (#39034802)
Putin was lied to about the capabilities of his forces. Now we’re seeing the same thing with Xi, except heads are rolling _before_ the invasion gets underway.
Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by mensetmanusman on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @05:49PM (#39034702)
China is purging everyone in the military that doesn't want war at the moment...
Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by SV_BubbleTime on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @05:01PM (#39034143)
To be fair… Russia is fighting a proxy war with the US via Ukraine. Without US intelligence, Ukraine may be on a very bad spot.
Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by dkjaudyeqooe on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @05:33PM (#39034533)
Russia is fighting a proxy war with its foot.

Ukraine would of course be toast without arms and intelligence from the West, but neither have any interest in starting or perpetuating the war. Russia's folly is convenient for the West though.

Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by Sabinus on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @08:17PM (#39036203)
>neither have any interest in starting or perpetuating the war

I don't think this is strictly true. Cutting Russia of from unimpeded Black Sea access and draining their resources in a (for America, cheap) proxy war are both in Western interests.

Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by bilbo0s on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @05:18PM (#39034360)
This is what it is to be in a multipolar world though.

I agree with your implication. The military forces of Russia are not paper tigers. Don't believe the hype. But at the same time, you don't want to fight proxy wars? Ok. Great. Then don't screw with other nations. If they hadn't messed with Ukraine, they wouldn't be fighting a proxy war.

The system works, again, because each of the major powers are comfortably confident in their ability to destroy the other 3. There is therefore, nothing to stop us from fighting a proxy war with Russia, because Russia will never use hard power to do anything about it. Unless Russia is suicidal, and they aren't, they will not escalate to a direct conflict with us.

Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by madwebness on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @05:39PM (#39034592)
No one is suicidal, but escalation don't always work according to logic. It's people making decisions, and people are emotional. Another thing to consider is, if you're the one up top, perhaps pressing the red button and living in a nice warm bunker with staff serving you is much better than being ousted, voted out or accused of corruption and facing the probability of going to jail (depending on the country). So I wouldn't be so sure we're immune to the global war just yet.
Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by Tommstein on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @07:54PM (#39035987)
> The military forces of Russia are not paper tigers.

If there's anything that their gloriously failed sneak attack on Ukraine has shown us, it's that yes, yes they are. Imagine if the most advanced weaponry they were facing wasn't small amounts of slow-coming ancient hand-me-downs employed by people who have barely even trained to use them . . . .

Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by madwebness on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @05:10PM (#39034248)
While any war, as Hemingway wrote "no matter how necessary or justified - is still a crime", without US, even the events in 2008 and 2013 would not take place simply because they would not had been necessary due to Ukraine staying in the Russia's sphere of influence. This is an unwinnable war for Ukraine. It is bad for Russia and certainly puts a dark spot on its history, but if there is at least one large and powerful country without dark spots in its history, please tell me which one it is. Human history is catalogue of crime.
Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by XorNot on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @05:52PM (#39034731)
We really aren't, it's just very hard to convey the scope of US military supremacy. But a short version would be: the US is so militarily supreme that a huge chunk of it's populace regards it's failures in occupation and nation-building (resulting in democratic, western-values states) as military failures.

This is both a problem (i.e. the reason that doesn't work is because it's pretty explicitly not a military problem) and kind of amazing.

Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by labster on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @06:28PM (#39035125)
The US military just spent 20 years in Afghanistan, a landlocked country on the other side of the world with little economic value, and only left because our politicians chose to leave. We could have afforded another 20 years easily with hardly a blemish on our economy or military readiness for other conflicts. Finally accepting the fact that Afghanistan had very little strategic value to the US was hardly a military defeat.
Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by justinclift on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @10:15PM (#39037242)
Well, the US abandoned 100% of the land it had captured, and the enemy it was fighting against then took over that land.

Isn't that pretty much the definition of losing the fight?

Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by labster on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @10:40PM (#39037484)
No that is absolutely not the definition. You win a war when you meet your political goals. The military didn’t lose, the grand strategy changed.

This isn’t sophistry, war is just extension of politics by other means. The vast majority of unfixable problems the US faced in Afghanistan were political, you can’t kill your way to a functional multiparty democracy.

Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by justinclift on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @11:13PM (#39037743)
Heh Heh Heh. So you're saying both sides won that war then? ;)
Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by labster on Thursday January 18, 2024 @12:14AM (#39038168)
No. I’m saying the military didn’t lose the war, American and Afghani politicians did. And not because we decided to leave, but because there was no strong strategic reason to be there after the primary casus belli was accomplished: the elimination of Al-Qaeda from the region.
Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by bilbo0s on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @05:05PM (#39034197)
I don't know? EU might be a sleeping giant too.

But you're right. We definitely don't live in a unipolar world. But that's a good thing. More people around the globe enjoy the benefits of peace when each of the major powers are all comfortably confident in their ability to annihilate the other 3.

There used to be coups all the time in Latin America. Not so much anymore. All of Asia is rising and enjoying the benefits of peace. And don't even get me started on how much better off Africans are with the ascendancy of China than they ever were under the US and Russia.

The world 70 years ago was a bleak place for the global south. War, famine and disease ruled the day. Today, in any dimension of human development along which a person would care to take a metric, most of the global south are far better off.

Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by dkjaudyeqooe on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @05:28PM (#39034477)
The EU is vastly underrated, sadly by the EU itself. If it were a federation, it would be the largest economy and would wield substantial economic and soft power, and potentially military power too.

A strong US and EU in alliance would be dominant combination.

Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by bilbo0s on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @05:35PM (#39034546)
I kind of think so too.

If the EU got their act together, and were able to wrest Africa from the US and China, they would be the dominant power on the globe. I don't even think they would need the US.

Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by dkjaudyeqooe on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @05:41PM (#39034608)
The EU needs the US militarily. Maybe one day it will be more independently minded and start spending serious money on its own defense.
Re:OpenAI is working with the US military now by dluan on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @05:08PM (#39034224)
> There used to be coups all the time in Latin America.

huh, why were there coups?