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Re:The Internet Is Full of AI Dogshit by nunez on Thursday January 11, 2024 @10:42AM (#38953709)
This is an old problem that LLM-generated content only accelerated. LMGTFY died when Google tripled down on growing their ad revenue and adtech dominance and SEO ran rampant throughout search results. It is fairly difficult to get non-biased factual information from a naked query these days, which is why I try to search for info on Reddit first.

This isn't a panacea either given that it's been chock-ful of astroturfed content for the last few years, but older threads from when Reddit was less popular and manipulatable or threads from small communities are usually good bets.

Re:The Internet Is Full of AI Dogshit by causal on Thursday January 11, 2024 @10:46AM (#38953787)
Finally switched to Kagi when I realized Google could not find a particular ThreeJS class doc page for me no matter what keywords I used, I had to paste the very URL of the page for it to appear at the top of my search results.

Kagi got it first try using the class name. Paid search is the way, ad incentives are at odds with search. Made Kagi my address bar default search and it's been great.

Re:The Internet Is Full of AI Dogshit by Gibson_v1 on Thursday January 11, 2024 @10:54AM (#38953909)
Maybe I'll try Kagi. I've had a hell of a time googling docs lately. I've been experimenting with different libraries on somde side projects and it feels like I'm always scrolling past stuff like GeeksForGeeks and various sites that look like some sort of AI generated stuff just to get to official docs or github links.
Re:The Internet Is Full of AI Dogshit by IanCal on Thursday January 11, 2024 @11:02AM (#38954026)
It's great. I find Google better when I'm actually looking for products, though that's partly it's not as good as localizing results. The nice thing is you can just whack g! in front of the query and it'll bump you over to Google. It's fast, nice, no ads.

Lack of history is a pro or a con or both depending on personal preference.

Re:The Internet Is Full of AI Dogshit by jhgorrell on Thursday January 11, 2024 @12:11PM (#38955170)
I have been happy with Kagi -- Like that I can change the site rankings on the results.
Re:The Internet Is Full of AI Dogshit by schoenobates on Friday January 12, 2024 @05:52AM (#38966525)
I've been a happy Kagi user for a few months now. As someone else has already mentioned, shopping etc is often better elsewhere, but for 95% of my search I use Kagi exclusively.
Re:The Internet Is Full of AI Dogshit by worldsayshi on Thursday January 11, 2024 @10:54AM (#38953910)
So does that mean that the free (as in beer) internet is dying and ad-tech killed it?
Re:The Internet Is Full of AI Dogshit by wharvle on Thursday January 11, 2024 @11:11AM (#38954140)
1) No truly-free search can do a good job on the modern Internet. It's too hard. "Free" search must be ad-supported to have any hope of achieving good-enough utility.

2) ... But that's because the incentives of ads (and affiliate programs, which are also just advertising) cause that to be the case.

(And of course ad-supported search is also doomed to "enshittification", for reasons that Google explained back at the beginning, then years later ignored to make Line Go Up—so yes, paid is the only kind that can be good, now, and yes, that's because of ad-tech, on multiple fronts)

Re:The Internet Is Full of AI Dogshit by stcredzero on Thursday January 11, 2024 @03:00PM (#38958089)
I remember when the angry mob, lead by the Penny Arcade guys came after Scott McCloud for advocating the end of the ad funded Internet in favor of a micropayment driven one.

Turns out, he was right!

Re:The Internet Is Full of AI Dogshit by wharvle on Thursday January 11, 2024 @03:12PM (#38958286)
I don't think micropayments can work, either. The vast majority of Internet content—and I mean stuff that does get seen, not obscure sites with a dozen visits a years—isn't even worth a penny to most (not all, but most) of the people who "consume" it, but is worth a lot more than micropayment-amounts to some smaller set of people. Enforcing micropayments wouldn't, for nearly all sites that rely on ad revenue now, result in direct monetization of their reader/viewership, but in a large drop in audience (and then a scramble to better-monetize those who remain).

For most people, the alternative to browsing most of what they look at on, say, their phone day-to-day, if it vanished, isn't to pay for more content (maybe a little... but mostly it won't be the same content) but to, IDK, play the Nokia Snake Game. The value is nearly nonexistent, for most visitors.

Re:The Internet Is Full of AI Dogshit by stcredzero on Thursday January 11, 2024 @03:41PM (#38958718)
I don't think micropayments can work, either.

What I meant, was that Scott McCloud was right, in the sense that ad supported content had some serious problems.

Re:The Internet Is Full of AI Dogshit by wharvle on Thursday January 11, 2024 @04:19PM (#38959231)
Ah. Yes, that's certainly true, both due to the nature of what ads are, and how that business model affects the relationship between creator and audience.
Re:The Internet Is Full of AI Dogshit by worldsayshi on Friday January 12, 2024 @09:43AM (#38968548)
I think micro-payments could work in many different ways and with much different results depending on which model becomes prevalent. But the issue is mostly that it has to both "work" once there's enough users and it has to have a mechanism for adoption even before it is "big enough".

Example of alternative for micro-payment model: You pay $20 to an intermediary each month. You upvote web pages/domains. Pages you visit knows you pay $20 each month but not whether you upvote them. At the end of the month, the $20 gets equal split between web pages you upvoted.

It's a very imperfect model that probably wouldn't get spontaneously adopted. But there's many ways it could be varied. And saying it won't work feels a bit too categorical because are we really saying no possible variant of this will ever work?

Re:The Internet Is Full of AI Dogshit by wharvle on Friday January 12, 2024 @12:30PM (#38971071)
Yes, I really think that all of this is both more money and more effort than a very high proportion of page-views on the web are valued by the person causing the page-view. I think there are implementation challenges to making a good system for micropayments, but also that solving all of them perfectly still won't get you a healthy micropayments ecosystem, because most of the web browsing that generates ad dollars has a value to the browsing user that is incredibly low.

In a field of thousands of interchangeably-identical but pretty poppies, would you pay a tenth of a penny to have one more poppy out there? How about a hundredth of a penny? No, it'd be of so little value to you that even a split-second of time spent contemplating the question vastly exceeds its value. The trouble is that most browsing isn't discriminating—acceptable alternatives include almost anything else (as in my Nokia Snake Game example—it's just killing time, and some options might be preferable to others but the difference is extremely tiny).

The only way it could work is if you somehow got almost the entire Web to opt in and start blocking non-micropaying users, such that very little at all was browsable on the Web without going through the trouble of setting this up and it was basically just a second ISP bill. I don't think that's possible unless a full ban on Web advertising were to happen, not just on spying ad-clearinghouses, but also on traditional ads. Then... maybe, but I still wouldn't bet on it working out.

Paid content does work, but it has to aim at addressing the small slice of the audience for whom your content is worth a lot more than a micropayment and getting whole dollars out of them, not pennies or fractions of pennies.

The only place anything like micropayments has kinda worked over a whole medium-category is music. What does that look like?

1) There's a clear legal framework and licensing scheme around music that is broadly adhered-to, and existing, well-established organizations to deal with to get it all sorted out.

2) There's little exclusivity of content, which lets competition at service quality & convenience take center stage and keeps competitors on their toes (very unlike video streaming...)

3) People do care to have access to particular content. They care a lot, when it comes to music, and indeed, many spend much of their time listening to the same songs, albums, and artists over an over. They do not find a random playlist of free music from Soundcloud or whatever to be at all an acceptable replacement, even if it's all in genres they like.

4) ... and yet, this scheme sees constant criticism of not making any notable money for all but the very, very top of the pile. It's not a significant income stream for the vast majority of artists, even those who do make a living at music. Their income still has to be made up elsewhere (remember that "small slice of your audience to whom your work is way more valuable than micropayments"?) And this is the closest thing we have to a working example of micropayments, and it is in fact a functioning micropayment market of sorts. It still, arguably, isn't very good.

Re:The Internet Is Full of AI Dogshit by nunez on Sunday January 14, 2024 @06:05AM (#38989396)
This has been tried (Apple News, Substack, Tapatalk). People just don't want to pay is the problem. They're fine with the ads.
Re:The Internet Is Full of AI Dogshit by ToucanLoucan on Thursday January 11, 2024 @11:02AM (#38954028)
The free Internet was only free because corporate interests didn't see it as an avenue worth pursuing, yet. It was a niche curiosity full of nerds talking about their interests, in boring text of all things, and nobody was shopping. Now that's flipped. Now everyone is on the Internet, and everybody's got built-in payment methods, so corporations have leveraged their power in the space. And like every other third space we had, it's been commodified to piss and back so you can't so much as walk down an e-street anymore without being screamed at by 900 assholes selling drop-shipped watches, pills to make your dick hard, mobile games that are 90% softcore porn by volume, and of course, weight loss drugs.

I hate the way we ruin everything.

Re:The Internet Is Full of AI Dogshit by klondike_klive on Thursday January 11, 2024 @11:46AM (#38954715)
IncidentLly I've noticed a disturbing uptick in borderline sketchy ads on YouTube recently, things that used to be subliminal in those "doctors hate her" banners are now overt and unskippable.
Re:The Internet Is Full of AI Dogshit by jjtheblunt on Thursday January 11, 2024 @10:59AM (#38953980)
Agreed: Kagi is straight from the future and worth every cent.
Re:The Internet Is Full of AI Dogshit by novemp on Thursday January 11, 2024 @11:27AM (#38954409)
Too bad Kagi is also investing in LLMs.
Re:The Internet Is Full of AI Dogshit by xwiz on Thursday January 11, 2024 @11:58AM (#38954923)
I don't think the issue is LLMs inherently, it's the misapplication. Kagi has siloed the LLM content into the 'Quick Answer' and 'Assistant' sections, and it generates on the fly from search results. (Plus, the 'Expert' LLM cites the references it used.) I think the issue will come when there isn't a clear delineation between real and artificial text, or when artificial text is presented more prominently than real text, as in the article.
Re:The Internet Is Full of AI Dogshit by digging on Thursday January 11, 2024 @11:46AM (#38954724)
Why is that bad?
Re:The Internet Is Full of AI Dogshit by rchaud on Thursday January 11, 2024 @02:16PM (#38957312)
Because Kagi is doing what Google was in 2008; taking a query and returning links as results. Indexing the web doesn't need an LLM.

Google needs an LLM because they have a business need to answer the question for you, thus keeping you on Google.

Re:The Internet Is Full of AI Dogshit by digging on Thursday January 11, 2024 @06:14PM (#38960908)
It's not the same. Kagi is trying out multiple products including ones that depend on LLMs (eg. a summarizer). But they're not changing the core web search product by inserting these alternate features. If they do, I'll cancel my subscription and I think others will, too. Since Kagi is supported by user subscriptions instead of ads, they'll have to pay attention to that or collapse.
Re:The Internet Is Full of AI Dogshit by nunez on Sunday January 14, 2024 @06:11AM (#38989421)
They are, but you don't have to use those features. I think you can disable the summarizer as well.

To wit, the few queries I've thrown at !fast were pretty inaccurate.

Re:The Internet Is Full of AI Dogshit by drcongo on Thursday January 11, 2024 @10:57AM (#38953961)
I had the same experience with a slightly esoteric Django class back when Kagi first appeared. I subscribed straight away and every now and then when I end up on any other search engine I'm remind what a good decision that was.
Re:The Internet Is Full of AI Dogshit by mangodrunk on Thursday January 11, 2024 @03:15PM (#38958323)
Google was amazing at one point in time. In search of profit, it got worse. Maybe Kagi can withstand it, but I don’t see much difference between one company and another.
Re:The Internet Is Full of AI Dogshit by nunez on Sunday January 14, 2024 @06:01AM (#38989369)
Absolutely love Kagi for everything except shopping and maps.
Re:The Internet Is Full of AI Dogshit by rvba on Thursday January 11, 2024 @11:23AM (#38954349)
You think that spammers dont use AI to write on reddit now?
Re:The Internet Is Full of AI Dogshit by jeremyjh on Thursday January 11, 2024 @12:37PM (#38955604)
"re"-read GP's last sentence.
Re:The Internet Is Full of AI Dogshit by larodi on Thursday January 11, 2024 @10:45AM (#38953773)
one thing to always remember, which may also easily repulse you from ever using google search again - it does not give search results. it generates a carefully crafted page which caters to your bubble. so does FB, so does Twitter, etc. just using different algos. Google search does not return the same results for the same query for different people, which a) makes it so different from AltaVista and historical search engines (from ElasticSearch if you want); and b) this is enough to NOT treat it as a search engine, even though is still billed as one....but as a personal wall of ad-designated BS.
Re:The Internet Is Full of AI Dogshit by htrp on Thursday January 11, 2024 @11:28AM (#38954421)
Well I feel like that would be ok if 1) they told you this 2) it actually gave you those relevant results

It does make troubleshooting officially impossible, can't tell people its the 3rd link on this specific query in google.

Re:The Internet Is Full of AI Dogshit by larodi on Saturday January 20, 2024 @09:57AM (#39068152)
> Well I feel like that would be ok if 1) they told you this 2) it actually gave you those relevant results

indeed, and the fact they don't tell you many things like... common ethics would require to, makes the whole service even more... despicable.