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Re:Austerity Is an Antidemocratic Strategy to Boost Capital by wongarsu on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @05:34AM (#38938650)
Somehow we went from "the state should be financed from taxes" to "in hard times the state should spend more than it has to quickly get back to the good times where it can pay back its debts" to "the state should spend to stimulate the economy in both good times and bad times, and as long as the economy grows fast enough it doesn't matter that this spending isn't covered by taxes".

This is in effect an infinite-money glitch, until you overplay your hand and a market upset bankrupts the state (or the state triggers hyper-inflation in an attempt to prevent bankruptcy). Austerity is just a roundabout way of saying "let's get more breathing room by abusing this infinite-money glitch less".

In an ideal world any country would go through periods of austerity to get rid of wasteful spending, before increasing spending again. But of course this is not how politics works: it's hard to sell to voters, and the things that get cut in "austerity" are often not the most wasteful things.

Re:Austerity Is an Antidemocratic Strategy to Boost Capital by gadders on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @05:56AM (#38938853)
>>the things that get cut in "austerity" are often not the most wasteful things.

That's how bureaucrats play the game. When an organisation gets their budget cut, they don't immediately look through the services they provide to see which ones can be cut or delivered at a lower cost. The first move is to float stories about cutting their most popular services to generate adverse press for the budget cuts. c.f. local councils in the UK threatening libraries whenever they get a budget reduction (or not as much of an increase as they would like).

Re:Austerity Is an Antidemocratic Strategy to Boost Capital by ernst_klim on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @08:17AM (#38939103)
Right.

In Berlin, we have a district called Neukölln, a poor district accumulated a lot of social and economic problems, such as high levels of violent crimes, drug abuse, a lot of homeless, gang wars etc.

The solutions for Neukölln problems devised by left-leaning municipal and city govs were absolutely fabulous, such as public swimming pools. At some point when it became clear that the district (or rather Berlin in general) is an eternal money pit, it was decided to cut its funding.

What was the response of local gov? Cut unnecessary and redundant services (sarcasm) like school security, drug addiction helping centers among others. Basically what they do is an open blackmailing, "you cut the funds, we are fucking things up", but that's how political blanket-pulling game works. Nobody likes funding cuts, so it's not uncommon that executives, local governments and various institutions sabotaging such initiatives.

Re:Austerity Is an Antidemocratic Strategy to Boost Capital by ilikerashers on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @10:06AM (#38939665)
What should they have cut in your opinion?
Re:Austerity Is an Antidemocratic Strategy to Boost Capital by Jensson on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @03:47PM (#38942861)
Bureaucrats, there are too much of them almost everywhere so they could probably cut their own numbers. Instead they choose to cut the workers, which is why it is so hard to do anything about them and why we have too many of them everywhere.
Re:Austerity Is an Antidemocratic Strategy to Boost Capital by seec on Friday January 12, 2024 @05:38AM (#38966420)
Pretty much. And since they are seen as "better" or more "educated" than the actual workers they are most of the time paid much more, so even though technically there might be less of them, they cost quite a lot more to society, for providing "services" that very often have negative value.
Re:Austerity Is an Antidemocratic Strategy to Boost Capital by pjc50 on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @09:58AM (#38939578)
Libraries are one of the few non-statutory services of councils. Not all council services can legally be cut.
Re:Austerity Is an Antidemocratic Strategy to Boost Capital by ponow on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @04:25PM (#38943393)
That inflexibility must end.
Re:Austerity Is an Antidemocratic Strategy to Boost Capital by pjc50 on Thursday January 11, 2024 @05:35AM (#38950370)
By repatriating all the obligations imposed by central government, such as social care, back to the central goverment budget? I agree. It's nonsense to use local democracy as a thin interposer layer on service delivery which is centrally funded.
Re:Austerity Is an Antidemocratic Strategy to Boost Capital by euroderf on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @11:18AM (#38940237)
In the US, local gov'ts often play this game by closing fire stations.
Re:Austerity Is an Antidemocratic Strategy to Boost Capital by lambda_garden on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @05:39AM (#38938704)
An important factor is which country we are talking about. Only the US really has access to this "glitch" by being the world's reserve currency. UK austerity was so brutal because there's no real demand for GBP, outside of trading with the UK.
Re:Austerity Is an Antidemocratic Strategy to Boost Capital by ben_w on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @05:51AM (#38938813)
I met someone in Berlin who told me that he was a member of the UK Conservative party, and that he was on-course to become a Conservative party councillor before also leaving the country. He made at least four testable false statements in that discussion (I made notes, one was for how long Cameron had been prime minister), so take this with a pinch of salt:

He openly admitted that the Conservative party manifesto of 2010 was a lie. That it was totally impossible to do what they promised about the deficit. Now, I'm not sure I remembered the manifesto pledge correctly, but even with that caveat, he still insisted that lying was absolutely acceptable. He refused to accept that normalising lies in this fashion is a problem (I wish I'd asked him about the Boy Who Cried Wolf, but I didn't) and then promptly changed the topic.

Re:Austerity Is an Antidemocratic Strategy to Boost Capital by BoxOfRain on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @12:10PM (#38940758)
I think a lot of the problem with the UK is that the housing market eats the wind out of everything else's sails too. This has both the economic effect of reducing the amount people have to spend on non-housing things and also it creates the psychological malaise of 'why should I work harder just so I can pay off some random baby boomer's mortgage instead of my own?'.

If we can fix housing we can fix a lot of what's wrong the UK I think.

Re:Austerity Is an Antidemocratic Strategy to Boost Capital by waveofthehand on Thursday January 11, 2024 @06:19AM (#38950745)
This isn't true. The UK can spend as freely as the US. Being the reserve currency has nothing to do with it. Demand for the currency is unrelated to how much a sovereign state can spend.
Re:Austerity Is an Antidemocratic Strategy to Boost Capital by lambda_garden on Thursday January 11, 2024 @12:23PM (#38955380)
It is related to how much the country can spend through borrowing and printing. Very few counties spend less than they raise through taxation.
Re:Austerity Is an Antidemocratic Strategy to Boost Capital by mjburgess on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @05:45AM (#38938752)
Its better to see gov debt in cost-of-repayment terms rather than an absolute figure. The total is really irrelevant.

Atm in the US, it's 16% of the budget goes on repayments, or ~3.5% of GDP.

Likewise in the UK, it's ~12% at ~3.5% GDP

I suspect it's fairly easy for a society to this level

Re:Austerity Is an Antidemocratic Strategy to Boost Capital by hef19898 on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @05:51AM (#38938811)
From my limited understanding of how nationap debt works, it also matters a lot whom the money is owned to. If it is mainly citizens of said country, the situation is very different from foreign investors holding the bonds. Just ask Greece (which, surprisingly, wasn't mentioned in the summary, and I assume the book, as a poster child of austerity going wrong).
Re:Austerity Is an Antidemocratic Strategy to Boost Capital by mjburgess on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @05:56AM (#38938850)
greece defaulted on some of its debts -- it's more about whether that's happened. To my knowledge the UK has never in its history defaulted on its debts, and I'd imagine neither has the US since at least the civil war (but i assume never).

The debts of governments of this type is about the lowest risk investments its possible to make, and they're treated that way.

But that also means severe economic crises in those countries has an outsized impact. If the US debt were to increase 12.5% of GDP YoY for years, the entire global financial system would melt down -- as US debt is basically the baseline of the entire system

Re:Austerity Is an Antidemocratic Strategy to Boost Capital by lotsofpulp on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @06:49AM (#38938995)
A country that issues its own currency never has to default. The only question is does the country produce enough goods/services that the rest of the world wants such that the currency (or its debt) stays in sufficient demand.

The above goods and services can simply be “stability” relative to the rest of the world, such that wealth seeking a safe haven continues to choose assets denominated in they nation’s currency.

Re:Austerity Is an Antidemocratic Strategy to Boost Capital by munksbeer on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @11:59AM (#38940650)
> A country that issues its own currency never has to default

That is really a statement without a real point. Countries can of course print currency to keep covering their debt obligations but that just impoverishes their citizens and means they lose access to debt markets (effectively).

I know people make this statement a lot, but I never really understand what point they're trying to make.

It sounds like they're trying to claim "free lunch" but I don't really know.

Re:Austerity Is an Antidemocratic Strategy to Boost Capital by lotsofpulp on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @01:46PM (#38941754)
I was alluding to Greece’s default being inevitable due to it not controlling its currency, a situation different from US/UK/etc.
Re:Austerity Is an Antidemocratic Strategy to Boost Capital by evancox100 on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @10:00AM (#38939599)
And yet they often do default. Look up sovereign defaults. Possible reasons why include things like “inflation is out of control because we’re printing money to cover the debt, and we’ll get voted out if we don’t do something”.
Re:Austerity Is an Antidemocratic Strategy to Boost Capital by ProjectArcturis on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @10:25AM (#38939834)
>often

Can you name an instance in which a developed country, borrowing in its own currency, has defaulted? I can't, at least not since the end of the gold standard.

Re:Austerity Is an Antidemocratic Strategy to Boost Capital by nradov on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @10:06AM (#38939663)
A country that issues its own currency never has to default. But Russia chose to default on ruble denominated bonds in 1998. Sometimes default is preferable to high inflation.
Re:Austerity Is an Antidemocratic Strategy to Boost Capital by 303uru on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @10:52AM (#38939919)
Mostly true which is why worrying about US debt figures is hilariously stupid. It's like worrying about China holding an unloaded water gun to your head.
Re:Austerity Is an Antidemocratic Strategy to Boost Capital by bryanlarsen on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @01:36PM (#38941652)
Over 40% of government debt is held by other branches of government. If your right hand owes your left hand money, your net debt is $0. That 40% should not be counted.
Re:Austerity Is an Antidemocratic Strategy to Boost Capital by wongarsu on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @06:04AM (#38938917)
I think both are important figures. Cost-of-repayment tells you how much your debt currently drags your budget down. Total debt in relation to GDP tells you how quickly you could pay it off if the cost of new debt skyrockets in the future.

If for some internal or external reason people are suddenly only willing to lend to you at 4x the previous cost, your cost-of-repayment will quadruple over the next ~20 years. Having a lower debt-to-gdp ratio gives you more flexibility on how to react to this because lowering your debt by a significant margin becomes one of the viable strategies.

Re:Austerity Is an Antidemocratic Strategy to Boost Capital by ThrustVectoring on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @05:52AM (#38938817)
In economic terms, bond-buying and tax-paying are the exact same thing, real consumption forgone by current workers. IMO, the profligate deficit spending of the baby boomer generation's prime working years is a symptom of massive demand for government bonds rather than the cause of some moral failure by leadership.

Like, it is true that oversupplying government bonds creates some really nasty economic effects, but so does undersupply. The government budget is not a household budget, and it's simply not true that their debts can or should be paid back.

Re:Austerity Is an Antidemocratic Strategy to Boost Capital by xyzzy123 on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @06:09AM (#38938952)
Selling bonds produce future obligations whereas raising taxes doesn't. Is that not a meaningful difference?
Re:Austerity Is an Antidemocratic Strategy to Boost Capital by injeolmi_love on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @10:03AM (#38939633)
> bond-buying and tax-paying are the exact same thing, real consumption forgone by current workers

No. US Treasuries are one of the most liquid and easy to borrow against assets in the world. When institutions buy Treasuries, they use them as collateral to borrow against with new money created by the banking system. This money is then spent in the real economy. That’s very different from taxes.

Re:Austerity Is an Antidemocratic Strategy to Boost Capital by epups on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @05:48AM (#38938779)
When do you think this switch has occurred, though? I mean, British debt-to-GDP ratio was 200% in 1815 [1], for example, and there are several other examples that suggest that most countries had their national debts peak before the past 10 years [2].

Ironically one major contributor to government debt today and 200 years ago were war expenses.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_British_nationa... [2] https://data.imf.org/?sk=806ed027-520d-497f-9052-63ec199f5e6...

Re:Austerity Is an Antidemocratic Strategy to Boost Capital by gilleain on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @06:07AM (#38938937)
Not just 200 years ago ...

English kings had a tendency to spend all the money on foreign wars. Take Henry VIII for example:

> Henry inherited a vast fortune and a prosperous economy from his father, who had been frugal. This fortune is estimated at £1,250,000 (the equivalent of £375 million today). By comparison, Henry VIII's reign was a near disaster financially. He augmented the royal treasury by seizing church lands, but his heavy spending and long periods of mismanagement damaged the economy.

> Henry VII had not involved Parliament in his affairs very much, but Henry VIII had to turn to Parliament during his reign for money, in particular for grants of subsidies to fund his wars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_VIII#Finances

Hmmm, having said that, the section mentions he spent a lot of money on tapestries, so maybe it was not all war.

Re:Austerity Is an Antidemocratic Strategy to Boost Capital by fallingknife on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @08:23AM (#38939126)
> as long as the economy grows fast enough it doesn't matter that this spending isn't covered by taxes

Which is technically true, but impossible over the long run for the levels of deficits the US is running now.

Re:Austerity Is an Antidemocratic Strategy to Boost Capital by waveofthehand on Thursday January 11, 2024 @06:29AM (#38950821)
It is not "impossible" at all. The US cannot run out of its own currency. It controls the currency. It can run whatever deficits it wishes to.
Re:Austerity Is an Antidemocratic Strategy to Boost Capital by jltsiren on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @09:38AM (#38939403)
Sometimes the austerity is ideologically motivated rather than pragmatic. The goal is to reduce public spending, and it's often combined with tax cuts for the well-off. Public finances don't get any better, but the income/wealth distribution will change.

And sometimes austerity means stupid spending reductions that would not even qualify as cost savings under any meaningful accounting scheme. You save money on infrastructure maintenance, education, preventative healthcare, mental health services, and youth work, and you don't see any changes in the short term. But in the long term, you get failing infrastructure, a less productive workforce, higher healthcare costs, mental health issues, and more crime.

Instead of cutting fixed spending, it would often be less harmful to cut discretionary spending – the programs the current government uses to achieve its policy goals. But of course no government wants to do that. People get into politics to change something, not to manage the existing system.

Re:Austerity Is an Antidemocratic Strategy to Boost Capital by waveofthehand on Thursday January 11, 2024 @06:23AM (#38950772)
It isn't a glitch, it is simply how the modern monetary system works. States can spend as much as they would like to. The issue for a state is what is available to buy, not whether the money is there to buy it with.

Austerity is therefore a self-defeating strategy. It does not remove wasteful spending, rather it creates more of it. What states should focus on is what are the best resources to purchase and how that spending should be apportioned, not whether there is money to spend with.