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Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by lagniappe on Friday January 05, 2024 @11:07AM (#38880569)
And anybody who's been to the Funker lately can tell you that they're the new insurgents as well. It's astonishing how overnight the terrain of war changed completely when the first drone guided projectile was launched in personal combat.

I'd be curious to know what percentage of a certain brand of drones is dedicated to this purpose, and what those supply lines look like, because most of the videos I see have only but a small handful of models in use.

Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by scrps on Friday January 05, 2024 @11:39AM (#38881035)
Ukrainians mostly use their own drones made by various groups locally to avoid being centralized, they are also running into issues with russian jamming.

Consumer drone gear is very easy to jam, also easier to foxhunt (RF location hunting) so it works both ways.

Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by coffeebeqn on Friday January 05, 2024 @12:28PM (#38881782)
I wonder would something like a small anti-radiation missile work against whoever is sending the strong EW signal
Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by reactordev on Friday January 05, 2024 @12:45PM (#38882014)
So now you have SEAD missions to protect your CAS missions but all in 1/14th scale FPV drones… the future is wild. It’s a game of rock-paper-scissors-lizard-spock.
Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by scrps on Friday January 05, 2024 @12:51PM (#38882096)
Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by ponector on Friday January 05, 2024 @01:59PM (#38883126)
I doubt the signal is stronger than mobile phone or satellite connection.

And the drone is too small to be intercepted with missile.

FPV drone costs 500-1000$ now and is the game changer in the current war. No ground offensive operation can be maid now without great loses.

Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by hdhfjkrkrme on Friday January 05, 2024 @01:03PM (#38882297)
A missile is too heavy, it's easier to just fly the drone into the jammer if you can locate it.
Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by brucethemoose2 on Friday January 05, 2024 @12:36PM (#38881903)
Or an anti-radiation drone!
Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by jdietrich on Friday January 05, 2024 @01:17PM (#38882478)
Jamming is a mixed bag, because a) you lose your own drone capability in that area and b) you broadcast a loud beacon that says "HERE IS THE APPROXIMATE LOCATION OF A HIGH-VALUE ASSET". The Ukrainians have had some big wins from triangulating weird-looking RF signals and unleashing hell on whatever is radiating it - you can jam a drone, but you can't jam a 155mm shell.
Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by Manuel_D on Friday January 05, 2024 @01:23PM (#38882565)
Jamming can avoid "friendly fire" through a variety of means. Directional antennas can emit RF in the direction of the enemy, but not your own assets. You can also jam on different frequencies than you're using to operate your own drones.
Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by jsight on Friday January 05, 2024 @01:56PM (#38883066)
That's all fine and dandy, but if you can use the source to approximate a location, you can hit it with himars.

Alternatively, send gps guided drones with optical targeting. If the jamming system has inadequate air defenses, it might not be jamming for long.

Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by scrps on Friday January 05, 2024 @01:37PM (#38882773)
That and larger drone comms for russia I would guess are satellite based which is harder to jam and sadly out of budget for the Ukrainians.

That being said I wonder if you could control small drones over satellite or if that is a $900 solution to a 99 cent problem.

Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by Manuel_D on Friday January 05, 2024 @01:48PM (#38882934)
Satellite communications also has the issue of bigger form factor and larger power requirements. Not an issue for a predator drone, but your DJI isn't going to be using satellite comms any time soon.

The more promising areas are optical communications (but this has issues with fog and atmospheric attenuation), or directional antennas. Like, a yagi on a gimbal constantly pointed at the control station.

Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by jdietrich on Friday January 05, 2024 @09:49PM (#38887872)
>You can also jam on different frequencies than you're using to operate your own drones.

That's an arms race with exactly one step.

If you're using a commercial system, then you're using FHSS across the whole of the 2.4GHz ISM band for your control link and most of the 5.8GHz band for digital VTX. If you're designing a system for military applications, then either you use SDR to go frequency agile across everything from VHF to the S or C band, or you're in the wrong job. The Nash equilibrium is for everyone to use all practical frequencies all of the time and the technology to do that is largely mature.

>Directional antennas can emit RF in the direction of the enemy, but not your own assets.

How directional? If it's very directional, then you've got a drone gun, which relies on you being able to see and track incoming drones. If you can see and track, you've already solved the hard part and making a hard kill is comparatively easy. If it isn't especially directional, then you've created a conical area of denial that is only marginally more problematic for your enemy than for yourself and still fairly easy to triangulate.

There is maybe a viable strategy of coordinating the frequency hopping of your jammers and your drones and using a distributed network of low-cost jamming transmitters to avoid painting a target on your own back, but it's well beyond the technological capabilities or the budget of either Russia or Ukraine. I have no doubt that DARPA are working on something along those lines, but the base rate probability of a DARPA project actually getting to the battlefield is fairly low.

For my money, the near-future of counter-drone technology is kinetic. The Flakpanzer Gepard was considered obsolete a decade ago, but it's arguably the most valuable asset in the Ukrainian arsenal for dealing with drone threats. Most current hard-kill active protection systems should be fairly straightforward to upgrade to reliably deal with loitering munitions.

Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by Manuel_D on Saturday January 06, 2024 @01:59PM (#38894173)
Regarding directional antennas, I'm referring more to a log periodic antenna that roughly directs RF in a 45-60 degree arc [1]. Placed around the perimeter of a base, there's enough directivity that an incoming drone is being hit with 100-1,000x more RF energy than things inside the perimeter. It's not a "drone gun", it's still jamming an area. It's just wedge shaped area facing away from you.

And yeah, the most effective way of avoiding EF friendly fire is spread spectrum communication where the jammer is synchronized to avoid the frequencies being used for communications. But that can be tricky to set up, since you have potentially many different radio systems with their own spread spectrum scheme.

1. https://www.tutorialspoint.com/antenna_theory/images/uni_dir...

Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by scrps on Friday January 05, 2024 @09:29PM (#38887744)
you can jam a drone, but you can't jam a 155mm shell.

This is both a fantastic line and wisdom.

Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by reactordev on Friday January 05, 2024 @12:43PM (#38881986)
It’s a lot cheaper to 3D print your own frame and just buy the components to build an FPV drone with an attachment for whatever payload you want to deliver. You can build one for under $300 if you already have controllers and headset to pilot one. Blades can now be 3D printed as well using SLA printers or using carbon fiber. ESC’s can be made with Arduino. I doubt they are flying DJI’s in one-way missions. Military drones are one thing but these new front-line drones have changed warfare forever.
Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by swamp40 on Friday January 05, 2024 @03:17PM (#38884274)
The Ukrainian drone frames are almost all 7"-10" carbon fiber pieces machined out from a sheet in China. About $15. Speedybee (Also China) took over the ESC and controller market by undercutting everyone by 50%. The blades can't be 3D printed because they need to be smooth and strong, but China again sells them for $1. Motors, China. Ukrainian volunteers are assembling them en masse.

China is also selling the same stuff to Russia. Some local manufacturing is being attempted (for instance I have seen a Ukrainian made ESC board and Russian steel frames) but China pricing and quality is really difficult to compete against.

Russia is beginning to ramp up drone production in real factories and I suspect they will eventually out-produce Ukraine, who is easily building 10K/month right now.

Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by latchkey on Friday January 05, 2024 @01:28PM (#38882627)
> these new front-line drones have changed warfare forever.

Beyond true. I'm in a telegram of the Ukraine war and there is so much drone footage of them literally dropping bombs on the heads of Russians, it is insane. All of this caught on 4k video.

There is one video of a guy sitting in the dirt... he's pointing at the drone to show where his friend is... drone bombs the friend, right on the head... and then comes back and bombs him. I'd link it here, but I think it is just too extreme for this site.

Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by throwaway_765 on Friday January 05, 2024 @11:41PM (#38888483)
Can you link the telegram of the Ukraine war? I would like to see the state-of-the-art militarized tech in modern warfare.
Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by latchkey on Friday January 05, 2024 @11:45PM (#38888505)
WarArchive
Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by AlexanderTheGr8 on Saturday January 06, 2024 @12:27AM (#38888701)
Sorry for the silly question but how did you reply so fast. HackerNews doesn't tell an account when someone replied to them. So how did you know I asked? Do you monitor all your comments or use some service which does that?
Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by latchkey on Saturday January 06, 2024 @12:35AM (#38888743)
Not silly or magic.

https://www.hnreplies.com/

Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by aftbit on Friday January 05, 2024 @01:21PM (#38882533)
They are 100% flying DJI drones on 1-way missions. Even a relatively expensive DJI drone costs less than an artillery shell. War is hell in many ways, not least of which is the sheer expense and resource consumption it demands.
Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by mrguyorama on Friday January 05, 2024 @01:51PM (#38882970)
Actually the American M795 155mm HE artillery round costs the US army about $820 each.

However, FPV drones are the cheapest GUIDED weapon by far. It's finally cost effective to give every single soldier a "Fuck that guy in particular" weapon.

They will be significantly less effective in a real, peer conflict between great powers though. China or the US would likely have significant EW capabilities against drones. The US would probably rather turn off GPS entirely than deal with American soldiers being donked on the head with personalized grenades every day.

So drones in a conflict like that would be much less useful in "hot" locations, or will be significantly more expensive per unit so they can be made harder to jam and interfere with, or will be used more as a nuisance.

Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by anigbrowl on Friday January 05, 2024 @04:47PM (#38885418)
I disagree. The US can't turn off all GPS, short of blasting EU, Russian and Chinese satellites out of the sky. I have an affordable GPS module on my desk right now that already detects spoofing with a fairly high degree of reliability.

But GPS is just one thing in the navigation toolbox. There are so many other ways for drones to orient themselves, from triangulating on RF signals to object recognition and location with ML, and both of these are now commodity technologies. And capabilities (and thus options) go up considerably once you start mixing and matching systems rather than leaning heavily into a single design.

When I say commodity technologies, I mean this stuff is so cheap and accessible now that I can see belligerents launching drone swarms simply to get the countermeasure batteries to reveal themselves. To an extent this is already happening in Ukraine; Russian ECM is superior to anything fielded by the Ukrainians (and allegedly, to anything the west has), but Ukrainians are in turn selectively targeting Russian ECM trucks.

Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by pavel_lishin on Friday January 05, 2024 @03:29PM (#38884458)
> The US would probably rather turn off GPS entirely than deal with American soldiers being donked on the head with personalized grenades every day.

Would that help, considering that GLONASS, or Galileo, or BeiDou or could be used instead?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GLONASS

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_(satellite_navigation)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BeiDou

Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by reactordev on Friday January 05, 2024 @05:22PM (#38885814)
No, it’s not like the internet where you can just turn it off. GPS modules use the 3 major bands (2 at least) in case of failure so you would have to create a localized EMF field to block the radio of a UAV. Turning off GPS will not deter a drone that has a commercial grade or better GPS module.

You are correct that most (all?) the “GPS” modules used for drones would fallback to one or more of the above alternatives to GPS.

Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by pavel_lishin on Friday January 05, 2024 @05:55PM (#38886188)
I think the comment I was replying to was talking about the United States literally shutting down the GPS satellites and the signals they send out.
Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by reactordev on Saturday January 06, 2024 @12:14AM (#38888634)
Right, which is why I said it wouldn’t make a difference as the drones GPS modules would just switch to one of the ones you listed.
Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by swamp40 on Friday January 05, 2024 @03:27PM (#38884411)
Grenades used to cost $8. Crazy how cheap that stuff is.

I just saw Ukraine drone-dropping Russian landmines back onto Russians. Fields full of free munitions.

Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by swamp40 on Friday January 05, 2024 @03:24PM (#38884368)
The drones will soon be autonomous. The technology is already here, just not well distributed. EW (except for EMP pulse) will be a dead end.

They are already tracking down signal sources and targeting them. The drones fly around till they get a signal maximum then look down.

I have also seen enemy analog video snooping where they watch the drone take-off point and geo-locate it to bomb.

Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by pixl97 on Friday January 05, 2024 @05:51PM (#38886140)
The drone wars have just begun and it's going to be years before the new paradigm shakes out.
Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by stormfather on Friday January 05, 2024 @02:07PM (#38883241)
In a great power war the autonomous drones with inertial guidance and optical targeting are coming out.
Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by pixl97 on Friday January 05, 2024 @05:50PM (#38886136)
Hell, with cell phone AI capabilities these days it wouldn't be too hard to shove an android in one of the larger dones and say if you get jammed and see something like this list of pictures, blow it up.
Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by pixl97 on Friday January 05, 2024 @05:49PM (#38886121)
>significant EW capabilities against drones.

>harder to jam and interfere with

This is where I have my doubts... We have things like HARM missiles, and I think we probably already have are or are developing "HARD" High-Speed Anti-Radiation Drones, that loiter around then attack whatever decides to start making noise in particular areas.

Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by spywaregorilla on Friday January 05, 2024 @01:13PM (#38882429)
The drones are so cheap it's pointless not to send them on suicide missions. The cost per kill is vastly far from the limiting factor.
Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by melling on Friday January 05, 2024 @12:44PM (#38882001)
It might be astonishing but it was obvious soon after the war started that drones would change warfare.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31842578

Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by dendrite9 on Friday January 05, 2024 @01:18PM (#38882491)
Prior to 2022 it seemed clear this was coming, fighters in Burma were using small drones against the dictatorship both for spotting and to drop explosives. It seemed like Ukraine was where real resources could be put into action, and things ramped up significantly. Before the videos from Burma I'm not sure where else to look, maybe Syria? There were drones used by ISIS but they seemed closer to military drones than what we see now with commercial drones or drone components used. I'm glad not be in the business of protecting people/infrastructure from harm.
Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by lesuorac on Friday January 05, 2024 @12:56PM (#38882172)
I'm not sure that's accurate.

Drones have been in use long before Russia took any land from Ukraine in 2014.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drone_warfare#Notable_drone_st...

Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by melling on Friday January 05, 2024 @01:02PM (#38882270)
Sure, they’ve been around for a while.

However, a war like the one in Ukraine will accelerate the development and usage of drones. You could tell by the early usage in the first few months of the war.

Now more global defense dollars will go into the rapid development.

Wait until we see swarms of (semi)autonomous drones

Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by bostik on Friday January 05, 2024 @01:18PM (#38882502)
> Wait until we see swarms of (semi)autonomous drones

Slaughterbots[ß] becoming reality in 3...2...1...

ß: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-2tpwW0kmU

Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by jsight on Friday January 05, 2024 @01:54PM (#38883035)
I think we are already there. "Optical targeting" and "edge computing" are terms getting tossed around in weird ways at times.
Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by cbsmith on Friday January 05, 2024 @12:54PM (#38882134)
I like the implication that drug mules aren't effectively insurgents. ;-)
Re:Cheap and They Don't Snitch: Drones Are the New Drug Mules by hdhfjkrkrme on Friday January 05, 2024 @01:02PM (#38882265)
For FPV drones both Ukraine and russia but the components from China and assemble them locally.

Ukraine is very worried that China is trying to cut them off, so they buy through a long chain of intermediaries.