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Re:The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copy... by DamnInteresting on Wednesday December 27, 2023 @01:22PM (#38784837)
I have deeply mixed feelings about the way LLMs slurp up copyrighted content and regurgitate it as something "new." As a software developer who has dabbled in machine learning, it is exciting to see the field progress. But I am also an author with a large catalog of writings, and my work has been captured by at least one LLM (according to a tool that can allegedly detect these things).

Overall, current LLMs remind me of those bottom-feeder websites that do no original research--those sites that just find an article they like, lazily rewrite it, introduce a few errors, then maybe paste some baloney "sources" (which always seems to disinclude the actual original source). That mode of operation tends to be technically legal, but it's parasitic and lazy and doesn't add much value to the world.

All that aside, I tend to agree with the hypothesis that LLMs are a fad that will mostly pass. For professionals, it is really hard to get past hallucinations and the lack of citations. Imagine being a perpetual fact-checker for a very unreliable author. And laymen will probably mostly use LLMs to generate low-effort content for SEO, which will inevitably degrade the quality of the same LLMs as they breed with their own offspring. "Regression to mediocrity," as Galton put it.

Re:The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copy... by logicchains on Wednesday December 27, 2023 @01:46PM (#38785104)
>All that aside, I tend to agree with the hypothesis that LLMs are a fad that will mostly pass. For professionals, it is really hard to get past hallucinations and the lack of citations.

For writers maybe, but absolutely not for programmers, it's incredibly useful. I don't think anyone who's used GPT4 to improve their coding productivity would consider it a fad.

Re:The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copy... by thiht on Thursday December 28, 2023 @04:31AM (#38791669)
Copilot has been way more useful to me than GPT4. When I describe a complex problem where I want multiple solutions to compare, GPT4 is useless to me. The responses are almost always completely wrong or ignore half of the details I’ve written in the prompt. Or I have to write them with already a response in mind, which kinda defeats why I would use it in the first place.

Copilot provides useful autocompletes maybe… 30% of the time? But it doesn’t waste too much as it’s more of a passive tool.

Re:The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copy... by rmorey on Thursday December 28, 2023 @01:42PM (#38796904)
> When I describe a complex problem where I want multiple solutions to compare, GPT4 is useless to me

FWIW i don’t try to use it for this. mostly i use it to automate writing code for tasks that are well specified, often transformations from one format to another. so yes, with a solution in mind. it mostly just saves typing, which is a minority of the work, but it is a useful time saver

Re:The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copy... by NemoNobody on Friday December 29, 2023 @02:17AM (#38802467)
Copilot is amazing. It single handedly returned me to the Microsoft ecosystem and changed the way I use the Internet. Huggingface is another great AI, I've used Githubs a bit, Codium a bit - all of these things are amazing.

This is not a fad, this is the beginning of a world that we can just actually naturally interact to accomplish things we have to be educated on how to accomplish now.

Haha, I love that people can't see the writing on wall - I think this is a bigger invention than the smartphone that I'm typing this on now, fr - just wait and see ;)

Re:The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copy... by MeImCounting on Wednesday December 27, 2023 @01:35PM (#38784987)
Ehh LLMs have become a fundamental part of my work flow as a professional. GPT4 is absolutely capable of providing links to sources and citations. It is more reliable than most human teachers I have had and doesnt have an ego about its incorrect statements when challenged on them. It does become less useful as you get more technical or niche but its incredibly useful for learning in new areas or increasing the breadth of your knowledge on a subject.
Re:The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copy... by cjbprime on Wednesday December 27, 2023 @01:37PM (#38785003)
> GPT4 is absolutely capable of providing links to sources and citations.

Do you mean in the Browsing Mode or something? I don't think it is naturally capable of that, both because it is performing lossy compression, and because in many cases it simply won't know where the text that was fed to it during training came from.

Re:The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copy... by MeImCounting on Wednesday December 27, 2023 @01:54PM (#38785210)
"Prompt:

Tell me briefly about the TCP/IP protocol and provide links to relevant sources

ChatGPT:

TCP/IP Protocol Overview Definition & Purpose: TCP/IP (Transmission Control Protocol/Internet Protocol) is the foundational communication protocol suite for the internet and other networks. It dictates how data is transmitted over the network by breaking it into packets, addressing them, transmitting them, and ensuring they are received correctly.

Key Components:

TCP (Transmission Control Protocol): Ensures reliable delivery of data by establishing a connection and managing the transmission process, including packet sequencing and error handling. IP (Internet Protocol): Handles addressing and routing of packets, ensuring they reach the correct destination across diverse networks. Functionality:

Data Handling: Data is divided into packets, which are then sent and reassembled at the destination. Error Correction & Sequencing: TCP handles errors and maintains the correct sequence of data packets, ensuring integrity in communication. Importance: TCP/IP is critical for setting up the internet and intranet networks, allowing different types of computers to communicate effectively regardless of their architecture, operating system, or data structure.

Further Reading & Sources:

RFC Documents (Request for Comments):https://www.rfc-editor.org/

These are detailed documents that specify the protocols and policies of the internet, including TCP/IP standards. They are available through the IETF RFC Pages. Internet Society:https://www.internetsociety.org/

A global, nonprofit organization dedicated to ensuring the open development, evolution, and use of the internet. It offers various publications and resources on internet protocols at Internet Society. Educational Institutions:https://ocw.mit.edu/

Many universities and technical institutes provide comprehensive notes and lectures online. Resources like MIT's OpenCourseWare or Stanford's Engineering Everywhere often have relevant materials on networking and protocols. By exploring these resources, you can delve deeper into how TCP/IP works, its role in modern communications, and the technical details underlying internet networking."

I copied the urls of the links because I dont know how to hyperlink on HN and the Stanford Engineering Everywhere link was broken. This is from the standard GPT4 ChatGPT web client. No plugins or browsing features enabled.

Re:The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copy... by Jensson on Wednesday December 27, 2023 @04:17PM (#38786849)
It should link to one of the articles about TCP it used as a reference to write that info blurb, not the TCP spec.

The problem is that those links doesn't link to where it got that text, it links to whatever that text linked to. Saying it is giving links is like saying that when I copy paste an article with links I am providing links to the source. No I am not, I am plagiarizing including plagiarizing those links.

So, it has read some TCP tutorials and wrote that blurb based on those. Don't you think it is fair that it links one of those to give credit? LLMs aren't capable of writing tutorials based on specs, they write tutorials based on tutorials it has seen, it should link to those.

Re:The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copy... by fennecbutt on Thursday December 28, 2023 @12:56PM (#38796224)
Presumably it can't link them, because it's been train on the data, not built on top of it. Gpt model doesn't include the sum of all training data, that's not how machine learning works at all (and overfitting on such a large and diverse dataset would be a monumental fuck up)
Re:The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copy... by abenga on Wednesday December 27, 2023 @02:22PM (#38785511)
I would be more impressed if it returned links to the specific RFCs and more specific pages elsewhere. What's a top-level link to OCW worth here? OCW is amazing, but has classes on practically everything. These are practically just domain names for "places to learn about the internet".
Re:The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copy... by MeImCounting on Wednesday December 27, 2023 @02:36PM (#38785653)
Well I asked it about tcp/ip generally and it provided general resources. Based on the context of my question thats about what one would expect. Its not perfect but it definitely can give urls to specific resources. It would be great if it got better at giving more specific links sure and some domains it can give more specific links than others for instance some git projects it can give precise references to docs while it doesnt seem to have the URLs for more specific courses on OCW, its not perfect but it is still a capability that it has.
Re:The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copy... by cjbprime on Wednesday December 27, 2023 @03:51PM (#38786600)
These are not citations. The point is that it does not / can not reliably cite the actual sources it used to prepare an answer.
Re:The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copy... by NemoNobody on Friday December 29, 2023 @03:17AM (#38802747)
Yeah ok, cause APA or some academic style is the to cite something professionally.

I'll be sure to tell everyone that uses the Internet

Re:The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copy... by zer0tonin on Wednesday December 27, 2023 @02:19PM (#38785469)
Even a middle schooler would be able to link the actual RFC 793 instead of just rfc-editor.org
Re:The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copy... by logicchains on Wednesday December 27, 2023 @02:21PM (#38785497)
From memory?
Re:The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copy... by tremon on Wednesday December 27, 2023 @02:29PM (#38785573)
No, from storage.
Re:The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copy... by jauntywundrkind on Wednesday December 27, 2023 @02:31PM (#38785594)
The ability to cite some rfcs is, to me, vastly different from being able to link to sources.

By far the wildest piece of this stuff is that it near completely obliterates any traces of where the outputs come from. The black box is trained, and yes sometimes some salient data pole rfc's are captures, but generally where each training comes from is not stored. That would largely defeat the purpose, would make the data it's crunching essentially incompressible, to store so much origin information.

Deeply unimpressed by this answer. This isn't linking it's sources, of where this response was trained upon. It probably got the write up & links from hundreds of other places.

Re:The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copy... by neilv on Wednesday December 27, 2023 @02:20PM (#38785485)
> LLMs have become a fundamental part of my work flow as a professional. GPT4 [...] doesnt have an ego about its incorrect statements when challenged on them.

To anthropomorphize it further, it's a plagiarizing bullshitter who apologizes quickly when any perceived error is called out (whether or not that particular bit of plagiarism or fabrication was correct), learning nothing, so its apology has no meaning, but it doesn't sound uppity about being a plagiarizing bullshitter.

Re:The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copy... by seanmcdirmid on Wednesday December 27, 2023 @01:47PM (#38785115)
> Overall, current LLMs remind me of those bottom-feeder websites that do no original research--those sites that just find an article they like, lazily rewrite it, introduce a few errors, then maybe paste some baloney "sources" (which always seems to disinclude the actual original source). That mode of operation tends to be technically legal, but it's parasitic and lazy and doesn't add much value to the world.

Another way of looking at this is that bottom-feeder websites do work that could easily be done by an LLM. I've noticed a high correlation between "could be AI" and "is definitely a trashy click bait news source" (before LLMs were even a thing).

To be clear, if your writing could be replaced by an LLM today, you probably aren't a very good writer. And...I doubt this technology will stop improving, so I wouldn't make the mistake of thinking that 2023 will be a high point for LLMs and they aren't much better in 2033 (or whatever replaces them).

Re:The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copy... by stefan_ on Wednesday December 27, 2023 @07:14PM (#38788475)
That's the joke, these sites are long produced by LLMs. The result is obvious.
Re:The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copy... by buckyfull on Wednesday December 27, 2023 @01:57PM (#38785244)
I don’t view LLMs as a fad. It’s like drummers and drum machines. Machines and drummers co-exist really well. I think drum machines, among other things, made drummers better.
Re:The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copy... by tremon on Wednesday December 27, 2023 @02:34PM (#38785622)
It mainly made mediocre drummers sound better to the untrained ear.
Re:The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copy... by graphe on Wednesday December 27, 2023 @04:20PM (#38786888)
I agree. Hitting perfect notes constantly with little or no variation is pretty hard for a person to do. Now anything "live" or proof of humanity is better sounding since it's not as sterile.
Re:The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copy... by idonotknowwhy on Wednesday December 27, 2023 @05:07PM (#38787392)
I agree with this. I prefer live music with the imperfections. And I like it when unmixed live recordings are leaked
Re:The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copy... by HaZeust on Wednesday December 27, 2023 @02:57PM (#38785903)
Then it comes down to preference, but the craft and discipline objectively evolved as a result. Just as your trained ear may keep your preference to more refined percussive - a subject matter expert may care more for their native, untrained materials on their topic. In either case, music progressed in spite of the trained ears, just as AI will progress all walks of life in spite of the subject matter experts.

Nonetheless, trained ears and subject matter experts can still pick their preference.

Re:The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copy... by buckyfull on Thursday December 28, 2023 @01:44PM (#38796932)
It allowed people to see the difference between drum machines and humans. Drummers could practice to sound more like the ‘perfect’ machines, but more importantly the best drummers learned how to differentiate themselves from machines. The best drummers actually became more human. Listen and look at Nate Smith - this guy plays with timing and feel and audience reactions in ways that machines cannot. Sometimes tools let humans expand their creativity in ways previously unheard of. Just like the LLMs are doing right now.
Re:The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copy... by fennecbutt on Thursday December 28, 2023 @01:00PM (#38796306)
Neither, and NYT editors use all sorts of productivity tools, inspiration, references, etc too. Same as artists will usually find a couple references of whatever they want to draw, or the style, etc.

I agree with the key point that paid content should be licensed to be used for training, but the general argument being made has just spiralled into luddism at people who are fearful that these models could eventually take their jobs; and they will, as machines have replaced humans in so many other industries, we all reap the rewards, and industrialisation isn't to blame for the 1%, our shitty flag waving vote for your team politics are to blame.

Re:The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copy... by shrimpx on Wednesday December 27, 2023 @02:33PM (#38785615)
Anthropic made $200M in 2023 and projected to make $1B in 2024. That's a laggard <2 year old startup. I don't think LLMs are a fad.
Re:The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copy... by asylteltine on Wednesday December 27, 2023 @01:49PM (#38785143)
LLMs are not a fad for many things especially programming. It improves my productivity at least by 100%. It’s also useful to understand specific and hard to Google questions or parsing docs quickly. I think it’s going to fizzle out for creative content though at least until these companies stop “aligning” it so much. Hard to be funny when you can’t even offend a single molecule.
Re:The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copy... by __loam on Wednesday December 27, 2023 @01:47PM (#38785112)
Finally a reasonable take on this site.
Re:The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copy... by ShamelessC on Wednesday December 27, 2023 @02:03PM (#38785297)
> (according to a tool that can allegedly detect these things).

Eh, I would trust my own testing before trusting a tool that claims to have somehow automated this process without having access to the weights. Really it’s about how unique your content is and how similar (semantically) an output from the model is when prompted with the content’s premise.

I believe you, in any case. Just wanted to point out that lots of these tools are suspect.

Re:The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copy... by throwaway_44 on Thursday December 28, 2023 @08:52AM (#38793460)
We use LLMs for classification. When you have limited data, LLMs work better than standard classification models like random forests. In some cases, we found LLM generated labels to be more accurate than humans.

Labeling few samples, LoRA optimizing an LLM, generating labels on millions of samples and then training a standard classifier is an easy way to get a good classifier in matter of hours/days.

Basically any task where you can handle some inaccuracy, LLMs can be a great tool. So I don't think LLMs are a fad as such.

Re:The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copy... by dinvlad on Saturday December 30, 2023 @01:06AM (#38813131)
Very much so. And their popularity has already been on decline for several months, and couldn’t be explained away by kids going on a summer vacation anymore.