News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:A list of Hacker News's undocumented features and behaviors by hn_throwaway_99 on Tuesday December 26, 2023 @01:44PM (#38774615)
Minor nit: I've posted about this before, but I wish folks would not refer to dang as a "moderator" or say stuff about "the HN moderators". If anything, I think it's more appropriate to refer to dang as the site admin.

The reason this is a pet peeve of mine is I often see people complaining about "the HN moderators" (e.g. "the HN mods are on a power trip and keep flagging my submissions!" or some such), where they are clearly taking this conceptual model from Reddit, and they seem to think there is a shadowy cabal of "mods" who control what gets downvoted/flagged (and, in fairness, this does and can happen in subreddits). In other words, when you see your submissions being flagged or comments being downvoted or flagged, 99.9% of the time it's not "the HN mods" who are downvoting you. It's just other, normal HN users (who have earned 501+ karma as TFA explains) who simply don't like what you have to say.

Not saying dang never blocks users/comments, but it's exceedingly rare and I've only seen it for the most obnoxiously egregious behavior after (usually multiple) warnings.

Re:A list of Hacker News's undocumented features and behaviors by throwawaysugar on Tuesday December 26, 2023 @01:55PM (#38774705)
> Not saying dang never blocks users/comments, but it's exceedingly rare and I've only seen it for the most obnoxiously egregious behavior after (usually multiple) warnings.

Issuing warnings or reminding people of the guidelines (rules) is also part of being a moderator, so the moniker is perfectly cromulent to describe dang's role

Re:A list of Hacker News's undocumented features and behaviors by hn_throwaway_99 on Tuesday December 26, 2023 @03:14PM (#38775589)
My issue isn't so much with the word, but it's that so often I see tons of users who are clearly bringing preconceived notions about how the moderator role works at Reddit and thinking it works the same here. At the very least there definitely aren't moderators, plural, on HN currently by that definition.

The other reason I think "admin" is a much better word is that it much more clearly indicates that this is a special, privileged role. That vast majority of "moderation" on HN is done by normal users with upvotes, downvotes and flagging (and also, of course, by automated systems e.g. with spam filters/bot detection).

But again, my primary point is that I see users blaming "the mods" for why their post is downvoted or hidden, when usually it's that people just don't want to acknowledge that the community, at large, didn't think they were contributing productively to the discourse of the site.

Re:A list of Hacker News's undocumented features and behaviors by cowpig on Tuesday December 26, 2023 @02:00PM (#38774783)
I had never heard the word "cromulent" and so that led me to a Mirriam Webster article describing how The Simpsons made the word up for a joke and then from there "seeped into our lexical consciousness". Worth a read!

https://www.merriam-webster.com/wordplay/what-does-cromulent...

Re:A list of Hacker News's undocumented features and behaviors by throwawaysugar on Tuesday December 26, 2023 @05:17PM (#38776699)
It's way too good a word to be left unused! ;-) That whole episode is hilarious tbh
Re:A list of Hacker News's undocumented features and behaviors by Seattle3503 on Tuesday December 26, 2023 @01:50PM (#38774659)
dang, or someone at HN, can and does silently modify the "weight" of a submission. That is why some articles stay on the front page longer, and some slip off the front page in a couple of hours.

This is far more control than reddit mods have. Reddit mods have one ability, an that is the ability to remove or not remove a submission, which is a very public action. HN can put its finger on the scales in a way that is much more subtle.

Re:A list of Hacker News's undocumented features and behaviors by romafirst3 on Tuesday December 26, 2023 @01:55PM (#38774704)
Very much so and it all happens with zero transparency, explanation or acknowledgement, very sus.

Your account can also be effectively shadowbanned with everything you submit going straight to the “dead” pile. Again no explanation and the only way you realize it is cause your submissions slowly die with no comments (and when you view the site in a non logged in fashion your submissions are not there)

Re:A list of Hacker News's undocumented features and behaviors by tptacek on Tuesday December 26, 2023 @01:57PM (#38774728)
That happens to spammers and serial abusers and, as I understand it, nobody else. People are overwhelmingly told when they're banned.
Re:A list of Hacker News's undocumented features and behaviors by realusername on Tuesday December 26, 2023 @02:00PM (#38774777)
I've seen at least one user recently which has all his comments as [dead] automatically and they are pretty normal comments. I did not write down the name but I've seen that only once.
Re:A list of Hacker News's undocumented features and behaviors by dang on Tuesday December 26, 2023 @02:47PM (#38775326)
This could be because they got caught in a spam filter, or because we banned them and the comments they've posted since then are better. In such cases we're always happy to take a look and unban the account if they're using HN as intended.

There are some weird edge cases, like sometimes a banned user, once they're unbanned, will revert to posting abusively. Then we ban them again and they revert to posting good comments again. Who can fathom the psyche of homo internetus.

It's also common for an account to post both fine comments and abusive comments. It's the latter that determine whether we have to ban the account—that's how rule enforcement works. But if a banned account posts something good, there's no reason why the good post needs to remain [dead]. This is what vouching is for: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html#cvouch.

Re:A list of Hacker News's undocumented features and behaviors by realusername on Tuesday December 26, 2023 @03:02PM (#38775484)
Thanks, I didn't know about vouching. I guess there's indeed an history behind each ban of a real user. (Not talking about spam of course, it's a different thing)
Re:A list of Hacker News's undocumented features and behaviors by lazyasciiart on Wednesday December 27, 2023 @04:05PM (#38786743)
Sometimes the history is “your account was pretty new so when you posted something a lot of people didn’t like we assumed you were a troll, banned, and never looked again”.
Re:A list of Hacker News's undocumented features and behaviors by Jtsummers on Tuesday December 26, 2023 @02:09PM (#38774885)
Assuming no violent (as in promoting) or particularly racist/sexist comments in their history, this hits some new accounts if they're using a VPN (some particular VPNs, I guess?). Sometimes they get caught up in the same filters used to block spammers/abusers from using HN. Or if their first (or one of their first) comments was a link without substantial text, that also gets people put into some kind of "spammer" category. You, or they if you tell them, can reach out through the email in the contact link at the bottom to get the ban addressed.
Re:A list of Hacker News's undocumented features and behaviors by realusername on Tuesday December 26, 2023 @02:19PM (#38775011)
I found back the username in my browser history, the name is baybal2, it's a fairly old account so I'm not sure what caused it.

I'm going to contact the moderation indeed, it's the first time I was seeing non-spam comments being shadow banned automatically.

Re:A list of Hacker News's undocumented features and behaviors by justsomehnguy on Tuesday December 26, 2023 @05:19PM (#38776719)
> so I'm not sure what caused it

The behaviour of the account holder.

Re:A list of Hacker News's undocumented features and behaviors by nkurz on Tuesday December 26, 2023 @05:42PM (#38776894)
You've found an odd edge-case. baybal2 is banned intentionally, despite the fact that most of his posts are good, and some are great. Unfortunately, the remainder aren't. The compromise is that he's banned, but users like me vouch for many of his good posts to make them visible. Here's a post from Dan about him a couple years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29692791. And another from 4 years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21195898.
Re:A list of Hacker News's undocumented features and behaviors by censthrowaway23 on Tuesday December 26, 2023 @02:07PM (#38774866)
If only we had some transparent way to know if it’s common or not or if it just happens to bad people we don’t like.

Unfortunately we don’t and we just have to trust dang and the benevolent hacker news gods to always have our best interests at heart and only spam us with the content that they want to spam us with and of course their friends and insiders content which we should be grateful to be spammed with.

Re:A list of Hacker News's undocumented features and behaviors by pvg on Tuesday December 26, 2023 @05:31PM (#38776819)
We do know to a reasonable degree because otherwise the ‘improperly’ banned would make a noticeable fuss. It’s not a common enough occurrence but maybe you have some in mind.
Re:A list of Hacker News's undocumented features and behaviors by romafirst3 on Wednesday December 27, 2023 @12:48AM (#38779446)
Huh? How would they know to make a fuss. They aren’t even notified, they are shadow banned.
Re:A list of Hacker News's undocumented features and behaviors by pvg on Wednesday December 27, 2023 @10:57AM (#38783191)
How would they know to make a fuss.

This is not hard to figure out plus when it was frequent, they did.

Re:A list of Hacker News's undocumented features and behaviors by tptacek on Tuesday December 26, 2023 @01:56PM (#38774714)
There are, I believe, multiple HN moderators; Dan is just the only vocal one. And among all the different sites on the Internet, there are multiple different moderation styles, of which Dan's is just one.
Re:A list of Hacker News's undocumented features and behaviors by hn_throwaway_99 on Tuesday December 26, 2023 @03:05PM (#38775514)
I don't believe that is correct anymore, and I think TFA is right:

> Hacker News currently has one full time moderator: Dan Gackle (dang), and formerly Scott Bell (sctb). Their comment replies provide a pseudo-log of Hacker News moderation.

I've never seen an anyone else besides dang comment that they are an HN admin in the past 5-ish years or so.

Re:A list of Hacker News's undocumented features and behaviors by tptacek on Tuesday December 26, 2023 @03:07PM (#38775528)
Dan is the only one who currently posts publicly as a mod, but if you search his comments, you'll see he implies there are others.
Re:A list of Hacker News's undocumented features and behaviors by hunter2_ on Tuesday December 26, 2023 @01:49PM (#38774647)
> and I've only seen it for

Speculation/intuition, but I figure it happens in ways specifically designed to evade the type of detection you're basing your claim on, akin to shadow banning, whereas on Reddit there's often more visible evidence like corpses of deleted comments.

Re:A list of Hacker News's undocumented features and behaviors by gus_massa on Tuesday December 26, 2023 @01:59PM (#38774766)
You can see the [dead] comments if you go to your profile and enable "showdead". Most of them are very bad, but from time to time you can find a false positive and vouch it.
Re:A list of Hacker News's undocumented features and behaviors by hunter2_ on Tuesday December 26, 2023 @05:43PM (#38776899)
Yes, I keep that enabled. I guess I provided poor examples but what I'm saying is that it seems like on Reddit moderation activities are quite obvious (i.e., a giant chain of deleted comments tends to indicate moderation and elicit resentment) and here they're less obvious (there's an air of strong moderation but little to point at directly, which is great IMHO as it evades resentment).
Re:A list of Hacker News's undocumented features and behaviors by hn_throwaway_99 on Tuesday December 26, 2023 @01:53PM (#38774688)
You can see all of those deleted/flagged comments if you turn on "showdead" in your options.