"peaceful support of Palestine", without condemning Hamas is still pro-Hamas action in this case.

It depends on the context. I very much agree, that I cannot take anyone seriously talking about human right abuse and not ever condemning Hamas. But I don't think that one has to say it everytime, when critizing deaths of children. And we don't know the concrete examples in question.

> But I don't think that one has to say it everytime

the issue is that those Palestinian protesters NEVER condemned Hamas. So, they just play Hamas propaganda playbook: commit attack, hide behind civilians and cry how cruel is IDF.

How do you know that? I know that many people fall into this pattern, but like I said, we lack the concrete examples in this case.

We had plenty of Palestinian protests in my area before and after recent Hamas attack. I never seen them condemning Hamas, only Israel.

Because Israel are terrorists

NY 2 days ago https://nitter.net/ScooterCasterNY/status/173796194844716683...

> one has to say it everytime, when critizing deaths of children.

One should propose plan to solve problem without those deaths, or his words just become propaganda.

Erm, no?

A mother whose childs have just been killed and who never supported Hamas in any way absolutely has the right to critize the bombings that killed her family, without having to present a working geopolitical plan.

Yes, but her critics is happily used by Hamas on propaganda channels becomes propaganda, and doesn't make anything better and doesn't solve anything.

So the mother should just shut up and accept that her children are not to be spoken about?

How about on the other hand, the IDF does care again, where their bombs explode?

"Israel's defense minister said he has "released all restraints" on the Israel Defense Forces' troops in their fight "

https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-wa...

> So the mother should just shut up and accept that her children are not to be spoken about?

for sake of mutual peace and future every human should think hard before talking on sensitive topics. But humans can't, so we butcher each other instead for thousands of years.

You are seriously demanding of a mother who lost her children to shut up? Would you demand the same of an israeli Mother?

I said "think hard", not "shut up", then she may realize that Hamas role in death of her kids is significant, and she is a puppet for Hamas propaganda. The same is relevant to you btw.

I am a puppet for Hamas, because I say killing of children is bad and the IDF should not give up restraint while operating in densely populated ares? Ok then, I got your opinion. But in my world, things are not so black and white.

> because I say killing of children is bad

No, you are puppet because you distribute point from one side, and are manipulative (distort my words).

> the IDF should not give up restraint while operating in densely populated ares?

I don't think we discussed this topic. What kind of restrain you are talking about now?

"I don't think we discussed this topic. What kind of restrain you are talking about now? "

Well, it surely is possible you did not read it, but just look above in the thread:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38746724

"Israel's defense minister said he has "released all restraints" on the Israel Defense Forces' troops in their fight "

Militray restrain means watching where you are shooting - and not shooting if the danger of civilian deaths are too high. The IDF officially given up on using restraint - and the number of civilian deaths and among them many, many children show it.

So fighting terror with terror? That's what it seems to me. And being called a puppet for one side, because I critize both sides - is just a very typical thing for this whole debate.

Would you please stop posting in the flamewar style? You've done it repeatedly in this thread, and that's exactly what we're trying to avoid here.

If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

I think you stretched your speculations too far.

Israel obviously didn't literally released all restraints, otherwise we would see some carpet bombing like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnd3IYH7x1o

Now you define what is the "civilian deaths are too high" exactly, what is the evidence that IDF is not using such protocol already, and if this will be sufficient to defeat Hamas.

No, obviously not all restraint. They would loose US support if they would.

But the israeli defense minister literally said he ordered the IDF to give up restraint. How much more official do you want it?

And the evidence that they are following this order, is the high civilian death number.

"and if this will be sufficient to defeat Hamas."

And this is the thing - as long as the Hamas leaders are safe in Quatar and being supported by Turkey as "freedom fighters" and others - this is not a fight that can be won with just using more brute force.

To be clear, I do think Israel has a right to militarily target the Hamas - but not palestinian people as a whole. Every innocent child that dies fuels anger and new terrorism.

Even if all of Gaza is cleared and its population send to the Sinai desert - it would not really make Israel safer. It is just a really complicated conflict with very, very old roots.

> this is not a fight that can be won with just using more brute force.

it totally can be: if 95% of Hamas fighters killed or jailed and 95% of their infra/inventory destroyed, it will be much weaker and won't be able to deliver large scale attacks.

> Every innocent child that dies fuels anger and new terrorism.

and not acting also fuels terrorists.

"> Every innocent child that dies fuels anger and new terrorism.

and not acting also fuels terrorists."

So killing a child or not killing a child has the same outcome?

I don't think so, but I also think this is going nowhere.

Would you please stop posting in the flamewar style? You've done it repeatedly in this thread, and that's exactly what we're trying to avoid here.

If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

No, actually it is not. Stop with this dehumanization of Palestinians. They are human beings. They are not worth less than you just because they are on the other side of the fence.

Well yes, but what if they support the initial terror attacks?

Massacring dance festival attendants and people in their homes is not self defence, it is terrorism.

But you would have more moral justification to limit spreading their hate and propaganda which this was about.

Also, it seems you are shadowbanned. You might want to reread and reflect some of your comments and then contact dang.

> But you would have more moral justification to limit spreading their hate and propaganda which this was about.

Absolutely not. There's no moral justification for murder.

Who was talking about murder? This was about cencorship.

> Massacring dance festival attendants and people in their homes is not self defence, it is terrorism.

I agree. The problem is, evidence is surfacing many homes and festival attendants were mowed down by the ones supposed to protect them, IDF (the controversial Hannibal directive). Like this tank filmed by a police helicopter shelling homes in kibbutz Beeri: https://www.reddit.com/r/ABoringDystopia/comments/18mbpxt/is...

So if IDF massacred dance festival attendants and people in their homes, the logical conclusion is they also committed terrorism against their own first-class citizens, not only against those from the other side of the apartheid wall.

"So if IDF massacred dance festival attendants and people in their homes"

Where is the proof for that?

A tank shooting at houses where enemy fighters were dug in?

On the other side there are lots of videos showing Hamas murdering people.

Summarily executing people for thought-crimes does not strike me as particularly aligned with basic humanistic and liberal values.

And tons of Israeli also support rather distasteful things, including before Oct 7, which has been widely documented. Some of these people are currently ministers (e.g. Ben-Gvir, Smotrich, etc.). And many Americans, and Italians, and $any_other_nationality. I don't want to play "tit for tat" here but only for Palestinians have I ever seen the "well, they support Hamas, so therefore it's not a big deal" line of reasoning.

> Well yes, but what if they support the initial terror attacks?

"What if" is the key phrase there. Can you jump into the minds of every Palestinian and know their likes, dislikes, motivations, level of support for Hamas? No, of course not; none of us can.

> Massacring dance festival attendants and people in their homes is not self defence, it is terrorism.

Absolutely agreed. But I'm not convinced what Israel is doing in Gaza is self defense either. There's certainly a self defense component to it, but cutting off electricity, water, and communications, and indiscriminate killing of non-combatants... well, none of that is self defense; those are war crimes.

Israel certainly has the moral right to defend itself against threats (existential or otherwise), but the response needs to be proportionate. I don't believe what they're doing is proportionate.

I am against one sided propaganda. The same I don't ask you to believe everything or even anything IDF says.

"Tens of thousands of innocent civilians and children are being massacred, it's unconscionable!"

"Yes yes etc but do you condemn hamas"

Literally the meme

Hamas initiated escalation, uses civilians as live shield and totally guilty in civilians deaths.

Don't get me wrong, Hamas is absolutely worthy of condemnation. They're not the Good Guys.

The problem is when people who speak out against the slaughter of tens of thousands of innocents are presumed evil terrorist supporters unless they also explicitly condemn Hamas.

We detached this flamewar subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38745904.

All: please do not post in the flamewar style to HN. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. We want thoughtful, respectful, open communication here—not political battle, internet tropes, and all the rest of that. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.