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Re:Hyperloop One to Shut Down After Failing to Reinvent Transit by yuliyp on Thursday December 21, 2023 @06:53PM (#38728876)
That sounds like railroads but worse. What's the advantage? Tunneling is incredibly expensive to do, yet you're proposing it in a situation where it'd need enough coverage so as to ban large freight transport over roads.
Re:Hyperloop One to Shut Down After Failing to Reinvent Transit by xgkickt on Thursday December 21, 2023 @08:23PM (#38729721)
Not a compelling reason but it’s probably harder to steal a lot of copper or cargo in a tunnel.
Re:Hyperloop One to Shut Down After Failing to Reinvent Transit by heads on Thursday December 21, 2023 @07:37PM (#38729298)
I’m not arguing with you here but it would be interesting to know what about tunnelling is fundamentally expensive.

Things I can think of: it is slow, so you burn through a lot of wages. To compare with road building the only major road I can think of, built in my lifetime, was the M40. It is 90 miles long and took 4 years to build but I don’t know what the cost was. The channel tunnel is much smaller than a freeway — two train tunnels and an escape tunnel in between. It is 30 miles long, took 6 years to build, for £9bn at the time.

Tunnelling also must require a lot of energy. What it probably doesn’t lean heavily into, in terms of cost, is either compulsory purchasing of the majority of the route or the political consultation and planning process. Those were both a huge deal when building a motorway through the Oxfordshire countryside.

Re:Hyperloop One to Shut Down After Failing to Reinvent Transit by svnt on Thursday December 21, 2023 @08:12PM (#38729634)
You could calculate the cost to tunnel under one linear mile at 40 ft diameter and then realize that whatever number you got, it is the cheap part because you haven’t reinforced, drained, ventilated, or surfaced the tunnel.

This doesn’t require a discussion to figure out. You just have to mentally walk through the process and do some back of the envelope math.

Re:Hyperloop One to Shut Down After Failing to Reinvent Transit by SonicScrub on Thursday December 21, 2023 @08:49PM (#38729932)
It's even easier than walking through that. Just Google the costs per mile of a typical subway line extension. There's a reason subterranean rails only makes when land costs are at a premium.
Re:Hyperloop One to Shut Down After Failing to Reinvent Transit by bluGill on Thursday December 21, 2023 @09:19PM (#38730139)
Even then most subways would be better as elevated rail
Re:Hyperloop One to Shut Down After Failing to Reinvent Transit by Symbiote on Friday December 22, 2023 @04:22AM (#38732477)
That adds a huge amount of clutter to the surface, and is very noisy for anyone nearby.
Re:Hyperloop One to Shut Down After Failing to Reinvent Transit by bobthepanda on Thursday December 21, 2023 @08:54PM (#38729975)
The most expensive parts of tunnels are where you come to the surface. The Channel Tunnel is cheap in that regards because there is countryside on either end and no exits in the middle.

Designing a high capacity train station or highway exit in the middle of a city is quite expensive.

Re:Hyperloop One to Shut Down After Failing to Reinvent Transit by backwardsmoo on Thursday December 21, 2023 @11:48PM (#38731048)
What? The chunnel cost £26 billion in (2023 equivalent), and is 31 miles long. That's nearly a billion a mile. This is by no means cheap (yes yes cheap is a comparative term), tunnelling is absurdly expensive and not realistic.

It's impossible to make the case for thousands of miles of underground tunnels that will add no benefit (what happens when something goes wrong? you can't simply overtake when something inevitably goes wrong (three train derailments per day in the US), it's underground so it's hard to access / fix problems etc etc.

It's a foolish, expensive idea, when the US struggles to take care of it's own railway systems.

Re:Hyperloop One to Shut Down After Failing to Reinvent Transit by Supermancho on Friday December 22, 2023 @12:14PM (#38736263)
The more modern tunnel project in Seattle, USA would be useful to compare (instead of the Chunnel).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Route_99_tunnel

Re:Hyperloop One to Shut Down After Failing to Reinvent Transit by louthy on Thursday December 21, 2023 @09:32PM (#38730234)
London's Crossrail (Elizabeth Line) is probably a better example of the cost of a modern tunnelling project (at scale)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossrail

Re:Hyperloop One to Shut Down After Failing to Reinvent Transit by whywhywhywhy on Thursday December 21, 2023 @09:45PM (#38730336)
Keep in mind it also has to navigate its way around what’s under London which is a lot more complex than most places, considering it’s full of tunnels, Victorian sewers and mass burial pits.

Less issues if there’s little down there to begin with. Although personally I don’t see why America can’t just build a train like a normal country.

Re:Hyperloop One to Shut Down After Failing to Reinvent Transit by heads on Friday December 22, 2023 @02:18AM (#38731781)
Indeed, if there are administrative overheads of constructing in built up areas then it would be important to compare with a major highway building project also done in or near a built up area.

I’m still left wondering though, in the open countryside, what the complexity (and cost) comparison is between laying down a mile of freeway and boring out a mile of tunnel. It feels like tunnelling is hard and complicated, but so too is making millions of magic coloured tiles that are all connected to each other so we can see each others cats and, very rarely, make phone calls.

Re:Hyperloop One to Shut Down After Failing to Reinvent Transit by hbossy on Friday December 22, 2023 @08:17AM (#38733831)
A road is just 2d tunnel.
Re:Hyperloop One to Shut Down After Failing to Reinvent Transit by MBCook on Thursday December 21, 2023 @07:36PM (#38729293)
The one advantage I can think of is no weather to deal with like snow/ice.
Re:Hyperloop One to Shut Down After Failing to Reinvent Transit by abathur on Thursday December 21, 2023 @07:59PM (#38729517)
Perhaps not no weather--water intrusion/management will still matter.
Re:Hyperloop One to Shut Down After Failing to Reinvent Transit by bobthepanda on Thursday December 21, 2023 @08:57PM (#38729995)
Also as a practical matter, a lot of systems stop running to discourage traveling; the underground may be safe but you still have to travel on the surface to your final destination
Re:Hyperloop One to Shut Down After Failing to Reinvent Transit by MBCook on Thursday December 21, 2023 @09:37PM (#38730272)
Subways work well, but I have a hard time seeing people travel long distances such as between metro areas knowing their entire journey would be underground.

Maybe people would get used to it. I don’t know.

I was only thinking of freight really since it doesn’t matter.

Re:Hyperloop One to Shut Down After Failing to Reinvent Transit by Ekaros on Friday December 22, 2023 @02:06AM (#38731720)
There are two areas where such tunnels make sense. You are either going underwater or you are going through mountain. That is you need to it to go through an obstacle.

For rest, over ground or above ground is preferred.

Re:Hyperloop One to Shut Down After Failing to Reinvent Transit by Moldoteck on Friday December 22, 2023 @04:31AM (#38732536)
Is this a problem for rail? Afaik they just put some special thing in the front of the train to clean up the snow
Re:Hyperloop One to Shut Down After Failing to Reinvent Transit by anonporridge on Thursday December 21, 2023 @07:36PM (#38729291)
There's not.

Tunnels probably only make sense in cities, not wide open rural spaces.

Re:Hyperloop One to Shut Down After Failing to Reinvent Transit by XorNot on Thursday December 21, 2023 @08:13PM (#38729639)
Right of way acquisition is still one of the most expensive and time consuming parts of constructing new railways though.
Re:Hyperloop One to Shut Down After Failing to Reinvent Transit by some_random on Thursday December 21, 2023 @08:45PM (#38729896)
Don't worry, once you factor in tunneling expenses it won't be!
Re:Hyperloop One to Shut Down After Failing to Reinvent Transit by senectus1 on Thursday December 21, 2023 @07:51PM (#38729426)
Its away from weather and extreme temp changes.

Its super common in Australia for railways to shut down due to warping of the rails from heat.

Re:Hyperloop One to Shut Down After Failing to Reinvent Transit by Moldoteck on Friday December 22, 2023 @04:32AM (#38732549)
I'm not sure, but maybe it's just a problem of their design? There are many countries where rail works fine even during summer
Re:Hyperloop One to Shut Down After Failing to Reinvent Transit by adverbly on Thursday December 21, 2023 @11:02PM (#38730799)
Some advantages:

- no impact on environment, birds, bugs, animals, trees, etc...

- can use surface land for other things

- no weather exposure

Re:Hyperloop One to Shut Down After Failing to Reinvent Transit by johannes1234321 on Friday December 22, 2023 @03:46AM (#38732291)
> - no impact on environment,

It requires tons of concrete, which causes lots of CO2.

Also might require ground water control, which might impact lakes etc. nearby.

Tunnels often are still beneficial, but it's not like there is no impact.