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Re:The housing shortage is larger than you think by TheAlchemist on Tuesday December 19, 2023 @05:15PM (#38702581)
Almost agree with you - but I would put that at 90%. The short-term rentals, and rentals in general are definitely part of the problem.

I strongly believe, that we should help people buy their first home and increasingly tax the second, third etc. In several developed countries, it's very lucrative for rich / upper middle class people to use their credit capability to just buy another house and rent it out - with tax incentives and deduction, it basically pays for itself over time. While the young renter who is living in it, do not have this possibility.

Re:The housing shortage is larger than you think by kelnos on Tuesday December 19, 2023 @06:26PM (#38703399)
No, that's not a problem. If there is demand -- any kind of demand -- whether it's for people's primary residence, a vacation home, or a short-term rental property, you build more.

If someone can't find a house because there are short-term rental properties, the solution isn't to force someone to give up their STR, it's to build another house.

I absolutely recognize that short-term rentals have other undesirable effects on a neighborhood or building: noise, constant random strangers in the building/area, etc. I think those are reasonable reasons for banning or restricting STRs, but "housing shortage" is not among them. If you have a housing shortage, the solution is to build more housing, full stop.

Re:The housing shortage is larger than you think by TheAlchemist on Tuesday December 19, 2023 @07:22PM (#38703904)
The thing is, we are talking about building homes and apartments - it's easy to say 'just build more', but harder to do.

We would need 'China style' decisions - which ended up with building so many apartments, that they end up with a significant percentage of them being empty, and the ripples of those decision will crush their economy for the years to come.

Re:The housing shortage is larger than you think by runsWphotons on Tuesday December 19, 2023 @07:43PM (#38704085)
People have been saying this forever but their economy keeps going along and does not look like it will stop until a dmeographic crisis.
Re:The housing shortage is larger than you think by TheAlchemist on Tuesday December 19, 2023 @08:06PM (#38704270)
Well, it's only recently that their home builders and lenders started collapsing.

The music has stopped. It will take some time, but the outcome is almost inevitable.

Re:The housing shortage is larger than you think by runsWphotons on Tuesday December 19, 2023 @10:21PM (#38705084)
Even if that happens, they will have plenty of housing. Worse things to make too much of abound.
Re:The housing shortage is larger than you think by bakuninsbart on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @02:44AM (#38706331)
3 years ago, and it was induced by government policy. At any given point since I've become politically aware (around 08), there's been at least one narrative around China's coming collapse, and it hasn't materialised in the slightest yet.
Re:The housing shortage is larger than you think by zamfi on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @08:59AM (#38708739)
Central planning is kind of where we are now already — housing construction is severely restricted, housing costs are subsidized in some areas for some people but not others, etc.

Competitive markets in general are pretty good at matching supply and demand, even when demand is pretty all over the place.

Cars are a great example in the US — sure, there are times when prices go haywire from supply shocks (e.g., due to chip shortages in the pandemic), but outside those no one really complains about a “car crisis”. There are new and used cars available at very many price points, old vehicles get retired and new ones are manufactured, etc.

In housing, one major reason we don’t “just build more” is precisely because of regulation that either prevents housing construction outright or makes it very expensive, nominally in the public interest. We don’t need state owned enterprises paid to construct vacant apartments — we have plenty of companies and individuals willing to build, we just need to let them.

Re:The housing shortage is larger than you think by shuntress on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @09:21AM (#38708959)
We tore up all the train tracks and put down roads and parking lots everywhere. You can't get away from the effects of "central planning" just because you want to pretend the market is perfect.
Re:The housing shortage is larger than you think by zamfi on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @01:00PM (#38711570)
I’m not pretending the market is perfect at all. I’m saying what central planning we do have has been very anti-housing development.

Your example perfectly supports that!

Re:The housing shortage is larger than you think by shuntress on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @04:19PM (#38713784)
My point is that the world is complex. You can't just ignore external causes/effects for one case but not for the other. You can easily flip everything you said and it makes just as much sense. Look:

Central planning is kind of where we are now already — transportation options are severely restricted, transit costs are subsidized in some areas for some people but not others, etc.

Competitive markets in general are pretty good at matching supply and demand, even when demand is pretty all over the place.

Housing is a great example in the US — sure, there are times when prices go haywire from supply shocks (e.g., due to mortgage bubbles or material shortages in the pandemic), but outside those no one really complains about a “housing crisis”. There are new and used houses available at very many price points, old buildings get retired and new ones are manufactured, etc.

In transportation, one major reason we don’t “just build more” is precisely because of regulation that either prevents rail construction outright or makes it very expensive, nominally in the public interest. We don’t need state owned enterprises paid to construct unused trains — we have plenty of companies and individuals willing to build, we just need to let them.

Re:The housing shortage is larger than you think by zamfi on Thursday December 21, 2023 @02:24AM (#38717943)
Hmm. I sense you are trying to make a point here, one I might even agree with, but I confess I have no idea what it is.
Re:The housing shortage is larger than you think by munksbeer on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @06:48AM (#38707604)
> No, that's not a problem. If there is demand -- any kind of demand -- whether it's for people's primary residence, a vacation home, or a short-term rental property, you build more.

In Spain, there was high demand for property prior to 2008. In areas in the UK, there was high demand for property across most of the country. Then credit became harder to get after the GFC, and suddenly the demand just wasn't there. In Spain, property prices in many area more than halved within a year. What happened? Suddenly everyone moved out? No, the demand was just demand from a different source.

Actual house price increases outstripped rent increases by multiples, but suddenly all of that demand to own just disappeared when the credit driven boom went bust (not everywhere).

There is often more to it that just build more.

Re:The housing shortage is larger than you think by dukeyukey on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @09:10AM (#38708848)
It's worth pointing out that UK house prices are higher than the US, despite incomes being ~30% lower or so, _and_ homes being significantly smaller.

The base demand for housing compared to supply in the UK is that much worse.

Re:The housing shortage is larger than you think by eignskwofn on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @10:14AM (#38709527)
Land. You can’t create more land. And neoliberals complain if local government has sufficient power, and the resources, to provide mass transit and build out housing schemes like they did in the past.
Re:The housing shortage is larger than you think by marssaxman on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @01:32PM (#38711974)
You can't create more land, no, but you can build higher on the land you have - unless some NIMBY-driven zoning code stops you.

We have a housing crisis because restrictive zoning codes prevent housing density from rising to meet demand. The market is not being allowed to work properly, and has not been for decades now in many places, so we have accumulated a huge backlog of unmet demand.

Re:The housing shortage is larger than you think by seanmcdirmid on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @01:36PM (#38712025)
You can actually create more land, but we usually just do that for airports. Hong Kong is a great example of building up and up while prices are still sky high. I guess you are just referring to the states though, right?
Re:The housing shortage is larger than you think by bombcar on Tuesday December 19, 2023 @06:57PM (#38703686)
It has only been beneficial to own and rent during times of incredible appreciation. If you do the math over long periods of time, being a landlord is a mugs game.
Re:The housing shortage is larger than you think by TheAlchemist on Tuesday December 19, 2023 @07:20PM (#38703883)
So why many sophisticated and rich people are doing it ?

It's a very good business. In many developed countries, there are very strong incentives for owning several properties. Once you've reached a certain level of wealth, it's basically free for your - since you're buying it with a mortgage. And quite often you can deduce the interest paid, from your taxes. We are effectively subsidizing this behavior, instead of taxing it.

Simplifying a bit - you want to put 100k$ to work, and you are wealthy enough so that the bank will lend you whatever you want. A great business is to buy another home, for say 500k$ - the rent and tax deductions will cover your mortgage, so you effectively turn 100k$ to 500k$ over the span of the loan. It's basically using your leverage, which first time buyers simply cannot most of the time. It's an unfair game.

In short - the system should be set up in a way that owning a second home should not be a good financial decisions - it should be an expensive decision. If you're rich enough and want to own a second holiday home - no problem. But in the current state of affairs, it's not expensive - it's actually profitable to do that.

Re:The housing shortage is larger than you think by huevosabio on Tuesday December 19, 2023 @06:07PM (#38703213)
If short-term rentals were a problem, you cold just build more until you have abundance of shelter.

Anyway, short-term rentals are basically a symptom of making it hard to build hotels. Most of the time staying at a hotel is much more comfortable than staying at an airbnb.

Re:The housing shortage is larger than you think by kelnos on Tuesday December 19, 2023 @06:28PM (#38703423)
> Most of the time staying at a hotel is much more comfortable than staying at an airbnb.

Sometimes! If I'm staying in a place for more than just a few days, I want a full kitchen. That's pretty rare to find in a hotel. Even small efficiency kitchens are pretty rare. And in most markets I can rent an Airbnb with a full kitchen for much cheaper than a hotel room with any kind of kitchen.

Beyond that, I generally prefer the Airbnb experience over that of a hotel. I know I don't speak for everyone there, but I think there are quite a few people with my preferences.

Re:The housing shortage is larger than you think by pfannkuchen on Thursday December 21, 2023 @01:40AM (#38717726)
> That's pretty rare to find in a hotel

Is that possibly because it is so hard to build hotels, though?

Re:The housing shortage is larger than you think by plorkyeran on Tuesday December 19, 2023 @07:48PM (#38704125)
I find the entire experience of staying in a hotel to be weird and unpleasant. When I travel I try to rent AirBnBs because I specifically like them better than staying in hotels.
Re:The housing shortage is larger than you think by dionidium on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @08:54AM (#38708688)
> Most of the time staying at a hotel is much more comfortable than staying at an airbnb.

It's trivially easy to see that this isn't true: you probably don't live in a hotel (or a structure resembling one), for example. Why not? The answers to that question generalize to travel.

Re:The housing shortage is larger than you think by alephnerd on Tuesday December 19, 2023 @05:20PM (#38702661)
> use their credit capability to just buy another house

Hence why most Western countries have jacked up interest rates, and will have to keep them quite high for the next several years.

Re:The housing shortage is larger than you think by scruple on Tuesday December 19, 2023 @05:33PM (#38702816)
But in a very real sense that's just pulling the ladder up and further securing the position of those who got there first. Something else / additionally has to happen here.
Re:The housing shortage is larger than you think by alephnerd on Tuesday December 19, 2023 @05:55PM (#38703089)
How do you force house prices to drop when

1. THERE IS A LABOR SHORTAGE IN CONSTRUCTION

2. ZONING WILL NEVER BE REFORMED AT THE LOCAL LEVEL

3. EVERYONE ASSUMES THE PRICE OF HOUSING WILL CONTINUE TO GROW MORE THAN INFLATION

All 3 highlight a broken market due to inflated costs. The only solution is to slow the market down and play chicken with owners.

> pulling the ladder up and further securing the position of those who got there first

Such is life. You can't drastically change a market overnight. You'll get voted out of office.

Welcome to the late 70s. This is how it was then too. Be happy we don't have a Volcker

Re:The housing shortage is larger than you think by medvezhenok on Tuesday December 19, 2023 @06:23PM (#38703373)
Nationwide rent control.

We've done it once before (World War 2 - in that case it was even retroactive, so you couldn't hike rents in anticipation), and it increased homeownership rate by the highest rate in the 20th century (something like 5% jump in a few years) by making leasing less profitable than selling.

Would also have to be combined with more building, but it does work. If you make investing in real estate less appealing (via rent control), people will sell - unless they're just hiding money (i.e. overseas investors).

You would probably have to go on a crusade in order to promote it, and it would require a massive anti-landowner propaganda push (of the sort that existed during WWII), but it's theoretically doable.

Re:The housing shortage is larger than you think by alephnerd on Tuesday December 19, 2023 @06:49PM (#38703613)
WW2 was done via the War Powers Acts, and being at war with half the world is a bit of an edge case. Also the mechanism used to do that was ruled unconstitutional after WW2 [0]

> it's theoretically doable

So is a constitutional amendment banning sloppy blowjobs but that is completely unrealistic.

Jesus HN has gotten dumb.

[0] - https://openscholarship.wustl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?articl...

Re:The housing shortage is larger than you think by bombcar on Tuesday December 19, 2023 @06:59PM (#38703710)
Rent control has worked spectacularly well everywhere it has been tried, and never has any downsides.

I mean that’s the theory, right? It’s never been truly tried?

Re:The housing shortage is larger than you think by runsWphotons on Tuesday December 19, 2023 @07:59PM (#38704229)
There are great new ideas here though like seizing all the beachfront vacation homes
Re:The housing shortage is larger than you think by lotsofpulp on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @09:32AM (#38709080)
The great idea is to greatly increase property prices on unused/underutilized land/non primary homes.

I would even tie some portion of primary home property tax to the density of people living on a lot.

Re:The housing shortage is larger than you think by slothtrop on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @09:56AM (#38709316)
And then what? That's a very short-run solution. Eventually, you have to build.
Re:The housing shortage is larger than you think by runsWphotons on Thursday December 21, 2023 @12:58AM (#38717451)
This is sarcasm.
Re:The housing shortage is larger than you think by zbrozek on Tuesday December 19, 2023 @10:23PM (#38705097)
Rent control does not produce units. You get units by reducing barriers and costs to construction.

One avenue is stronger property rights. Don't let local governments and randos have an opportunity to make demands or issue denials.

It took me nearly four years to get approvals and permits to repair an existing home in California. Building a new one seems impossible.

Re:The housing shortage is larger than you think by medvezhenok on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @01:05AM (#38705921)
I agree with you that the best thing to do is to relax the regulations for building (and permitting, etc etc). I was talking about fallbacks when building is not an option (either politically or because of a labor shortage or otherwise).

"New York University economics Professor Edward Wolff, a specialist in real estate statistics, said 4.48 percent of American households owned three or more residential properties in 1998, compared with fewer than 1 percent in the early '90s."

I wonder what that number is today...

Re:The housing shortage is larger than you think by afpx on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @09:51AM (#38709259)
One of the first things they teach in Econ 101 is how bad rent control is for an economy.