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Re:Chimera Linux by torstenvl on Saturday December 16, 2023 @06:14PM (#38668698)
Saying musl is non-standard is a serious allegation. Can you expand on that? In what way does it violate the standard?
Re:Chimera Linux by wavemode on Saturday December 16, 2023 @06:34PM (#38668845)
I read "nonstandard" in their comment by its dictionary definition ("not average, normal, or usual"). Not that it literally violates a published standard.
Re:Chimera Linux by NewJazz on Saturday December 16, 2023 @06:44PM (#38668923)
Most Linux installs are going to be using Bionic libc, so still dubious to call glibc "standard". This is Linux. There is no standard. OpenWRT used uClibc until 2019.
Re:Chimera Linux by LeFantome on Saturday December 16, 2023 @07:55PM (#38669360)
I am a fan of Chimera Linux and both Alpine and Void also use MUSL. But there is no denying that Glibc is the de facto standard on Linux Desktops and many desktop applications assume it.

To me, that is a bad thing and we agree that diversity should be possible.

We do not agree that “most Linux installs are going to be using Bionic”. Android uses the Linux kernel but it is not what people mean when they say “Linux”. The applications running on Android and the ones running on your Linux desktop are separate universes.

Re:Chimera Linux by NewJazz on Saturday December 16, 2023 @10:25PM (#38670076)
Android uses the Linux kernel but it is not what people mean when they say “Linux”.

Speak for yourself.

In my mind, Linux is home routers, smart TVs, digital signage, tablets, smartphone, fridges, and yes, servers and workstations.

Re:Chimera Linux by cycomanic on Saturday December 16, 2023 @10:42PM (#38670141)
Are you saying that just to be contrarian? When somebody tells you they're running Linux on the laptop, you actually think they are owning a chrome book (considering that there are likely more chrome books than laptops with other linuxes), when you read a job add which requires Linux admin knowledge, you think they mean being able to install apps on android?
Re:Chimera Linux by NewJazz on Sunday December 17, 2023 @12:23AM (#38670518)
No and no.
Re:Chimera Linux by musicale on Sunday December 17, 2023 @11:01PM (#38679104)
> To me, that is a bad thing and we agree that diversity should be possible.

I too would like the standard C library to be an actual standard with multiple compliant and compatible implementations, and I'd like apps to work correctly across multiple implementations.

Re:Chimera Linux by xcv123 on Saturday December 16, 2023 @07:25PM (#38669183)
GNU/Linux is the standard, as in most common. That's where it all started. Android is not used as a desktop or server OS.
Re:Chimera Linux by Conscat on Sunday December 17, 2023 @01:53AM (#38670929)
Android is used as a desktop OS in a limited capacity among a small group of hackers.
Re:Chimera Linux by torstenvl on Saturday December 16, 2023 @06:47PM (#38668950)
That strikes me as disingenuous. Can you show me even one example of another person using "nonstandard" in this way as applied to a C library?
Re:Chimera Linux by arp242 on Saturday December 16, 2023 @08:08PM (#38669439)
You are replying to someone who did, so there's your example. There's a bunch of other people in this thread as well – you really don't need to look very far.

"Standard" is one of those words that can mean different things. Insisting on one absolute definition and calling anyone who uses another definition "disingenuous" is not hugely constructive.

Re:Chimera Linux by trenchgun on Sunday December 17, 2023 @04:36AM (#38671611)
Are you saying there is not only one "standard" use of the word "standard"?
Re:Chimera Linux by marcus0x62 on Monday December 18, 2023 @08:44AM (#38682341)
> Insisting on one absolute definition and calling anyone who uses another definition "disingenuous" is not hugely constructive.

It's also ironic coming from someone who's opening salvo was to describe a post about musl being "non-standard" as constituting a "serious allegation".

Re:Chimera Linux by torstenvl on Monday December 18, 2023 @10:45AM (#38684017)
> Insisting on one absolute definition and calling anyone who uses another definition "disingenuous" is not hugely constructive.

Nobody said anything about an absolute definition.

When describing the C standard library, the only reasonable interpretation of "nonstandard" is that it does not adhere to standard C. There are no counter-examples anyone has been able to provide from any corpus.

Re:Chimera Linux by marcus0x62 on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @03:08PM (#38713000)
> When describing the C standard library, the only reasonable interpretation of "nonstandard" is that it does not adhere to standard C

No, that is your interpretation, and one that, so far as I can tell from all of the responses in this thread, you are alone in believing.

> There are no counter-examples anyone has been able to provide from any corpus.

* https://elinux.org/images/1/15/Anatomy_of_Cross-Compilation_... 2016, see page 14 "de facto standard of Linux C libraries"

* https://www.linuxjournal.com/article/3417 (June 1999) -- "Linux has now standardized on the GNU C library (glibc) as the common implementation for future Linux systems."

* https://www.reddit.com/r/C_Programming/comments/9g6531/where... "For the standard library, uCLibC and muSL are the two lightweight (and thus likely easier to understand) libraries. GLibC ("libc") is more or less the de-facto standard C library for all non-windows (and even some windows) development."

* https://man.archlinux.org/man/glibc.7 -- "For a while, Linux libc was the standard C library in many Linux distributions."

Re:Chimera Linux by xcv123 on Saturday December 16, 2023 @07:02PM (#38669043)
Glibc is the standard (as in the most commonly used) libc. Musl is not commonly used. Musl is not the standard libc on Linux.

It requires some effort to migrate applications to musl, and there are functional differences from glibc. https://wiki.musl-libc.org/functional-differences-from-glibc...

Re:Chimera Linux by dataangel on Saturday December 16, 2023 @10:17PM (#38670041)
That is really how I meant it. Using Linux for almost 20 years I've found the most important part of having a working system is being on the beaten path. Distros that do too much exotic stuff spend all their time fruitlessly trying to keep up with porting and end up confined to a small user base of OS geekery enthusiasts.
Re:Chimera Linux by dataangel on Saturday December 16, 2023 @10:15PM (#38670027)
yes exactly what I meant
Re:Chimera Linux by marcus0x62 on Saturday December 16, 2023 @06:48PM (#38668958)
> Saying musk is non-standard is a serious allegation.

No, it isn't. It's the GP's opinion.

Standard has a few different meanings, including something typically or commonly used. As in "GNU Libc has been the standard C library used by Linux distributions since 1991." That would be, you know, a statement of fact. Musl is, at best, a niche option used by a few distros.

Re:Chimera Linux by dataangel on Saturday December 16, 2023 @10:18PM (#38670045)
It's not used by any of the major ones, so in practice lots of apps will be broken. I like musl, and I link it for my own stuff but I only have to make sure my stuff works. if I had to make sure everyone's existing stuff worked glibc is the only practical choice.
Re:Chimera Linux by mynameisnoone on Sunday December 17, 2023 @01:01AM (#38670688)
Yep. There are lots of edge-cases and macros that glibc provides are difficult to emulate because they require a lot of domain-specific knowledge and special handling. There isn't really a way to use musl in any large distro without lots and lots of patching and giving up correctness and completeness. It's akin to not using ICU4{C,J} and praying that simplistic Unicode handling like normalization will magically work.

Using musl is fine for limited uses, but it's magical thinking to believe that it's at exact feature and functional parity replacement for glibc.

Re:Chimera Linux by dizhn on Sunday December 17, 2023 @02:11AM (#38670983)
If a distro is advertising the fact that they are not using glibc, then that's the standard. I don't mean no snark. This is the way parent probably used the term. It doesn't mean musl is not good or it violates some standard. Though you are more likely to have problems with it as an end user where gentoo/arch wikis won't be of any help.