News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by gorgoiler on Friday December 15, 2023 @12:50AM (#38651389)
My life archive is available to my heirs and successors as long as they know the LUKS password for any of the numerous storage devices I leave behind. It’s risky though — the passwords aren’t known to them yet and one logistical slip up means the disk may be unusable. That is, however, until some point in the future when they will have a computer powerful enough to just break the key and feast upon my cat photos, tax returns, and other exciting ephemera.

Similarly my encrypted internet traffic might be private today but if it’s being logged then it’s only a matter of time before it will be completely visible to the authorities. I probably average ~10Mbps of traffic which is ~50TB/year, or $100 of storage. You could cut that price by 10% if you blacklisted the Netflix traffic, and drop it to 1% if you whitelisted only the email and IM traffic.

Either way, one day they’ll know everything.

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by londons_explore on Friday December 15, 2023 @02:00AM (#38651733)
If the contents of your computer is anything like the contents of most old people's attics, there is a good chance your descendants really don't want to go through all of it. They'll just chuck it in the trash without even opening it.

Turns out the next generation has their own life to worry about, and doesn't care much for their ancestors' stuff (unless it's money... they love money...).

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by weweersdfsd on Friday December 15, 2023 @03:40AM (#38652250)
But after enough time passes, lots of people do get interested in their ancestors. That's why DNA ancestry services are a big business - people get curious about where their unknown farther relatives came from. I guess there's just less mystery about people you actually knew.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by nextlevelwizard on Friday December 15, 2023 @02:13AM (#38651806)
Pretty much. Anecdotes about lives of elderly people are nice when you are sitting an evening with a glass of wine and plate of cheese. Otherwise who cares? Nothing is worse than trying to go through bunch of old faded photos where no one - even the owner - can identify who is actually in the picture.

I guess in our day and age we could write extensive meta data about where and when a picture was taken and who is in the picture, but I don't care to look through my own pictures, why would anyone else?

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by dotancohen on Friday December 15, 2023 @04:41AM (#38652557)

  > Anecdotes about lives of elderly people are nice when you are sitting an evening with a glass of wine and plate of cheese. Otherwise who cares?
I could imagine a future where DRM and copyright and just the cold fear of ligation could change the recreational screentime for families from being primarily studio-produced content to being primarily ancestor-produced content.

I remember some book I read where the child was constantly hearing about his family's history. Dune, maybe? Maybe a Philip Dick book? Asimov? I'm getting old.

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by sumtechguy on Friday December 15, 2023 @09:03AM (#38654244)
I know my carefully curated collections of stuff will be worth pretty much zero to anyone a I leave them to. They may be interested in the pictures. But that would be about it. My massive cd/dvd/bluray/games/books/coins collection that I have amassed and carefully cataloged. At best it will end up at goodwill/ebay or at worst in the trash.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by thih9 on Friday December 15, 2023 @05:25PM (#38659585)
> Otherwise who cares?

People who can profit. And the idea of profit might be different in future.

That attic might contain a priceless vintage synthesizer, that encrypted drive might contain a priceless set of vintage unpublished club penguin screenshots that would make its AI approximation 0.03% more accurate. Etc.

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by anshorei on Saturday December 16, 2023 @07:13PM (#38669118)
My experience is completely different. I've painstakingly scanned my family's old pictures, transcribed the letters they wrote when on holiday, and still have some school crafts made by my grandparents.

After the death of one of my great uncles who died childless I picked up his photo and music collection. And I discovered the grandfather of a friend of mine in one of his holiday pictures, turns out they used to be friends and we had no idea.

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by quailfarmer on Friday December 15, 2023 @03:24AM (#38652161)
Wow, perhaps I’m an exception to the norm, but this isn’t my experience at all. My family regularly sends interesting historical records of the lives of our ancestors. My great aunt composed a historical record of my great grandfather, who over his life built dozens of houses by his own hand. Even at university, I read a number of interesting historical letters and documents of the people who lived in the same dormitories in generations past.

I guess I may be ignoring all those documents that weren’t interesting enough to be remembered, but I imagine it’s hard to predict what will be interesting in the future. The fact that 99% of our lives are stored in computers vs paper would still vastly reduce the number of _interesting_ documents.

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by buran77 on Friday December 15, 2023 @06:44AM (#38653167)
The key difference may be in the volume. Old pictures are more important to a family because there are so few of them. I only have one picture of my grandfather because it was taken when cameras were rarer than hen's teeth and 35mm film hadn't been invented yet. Now we have hundreds of thousands of pictures between the family members. Every vacation, every meal, every unimportant moment in time. I don't have time to look at my own pictures and I don't expect anyone else ever will.

Digital assets are a lot more perishable that physical ones. Cloud accounts will expire and be purged before anyone has the chance to retrieve them. Nobody will do "storage wars" with your pictures. Your local storage will fail or become incompatible with future tech before anyone has a chance to care about it.

We generate information at an ever increasing rate so whatever digital collections we have now will probably never be "dug up" by our descendants for a deeper look.

I'm trying to leave a "curated" collection with a few memories in such a way that it's immediately available to my family after I'm no longer around. Some moments in time that were important to my life, and had an influence on theirs.

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by Noumenon72 on Friday December 15, 2023 @07:36PM (#38660618)
Leave everything and let LLMs curate it on demand. "Show me pictures of my grandpa during the 2020 pandemic." "Show me pictures of my grandma's hobbies." "Find the most interesting pictures in this folder, not interesting historically but interesting action or visuals." "Make a montage of my cousins growing up." "Change my wallpaper every day to the most interesting family photo from that day of the year."
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by JKCalhoun on Friday December 15, 2023 @08:03AM (#38653740)
Great aunt, great grandfather — that's more than one generation back. I think it does get interesting when the distance in time increases.

Lets hope our kids and theirs keep our digital archives long enough for the great grandkid's to enjoy.

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by CalRobert on Friday December 15, 2023 @10:01AM (#38654819)
Fpr what it's worth my grandfather recorded his memoirs recently and I am very grateful. He's led a very interesting life (much more so than my own!) which is the key component, really.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by jlarocco on Friday December 15, 2023 @12:25PM (#38656311)
Memoirs are one thing, but archives of mundane daily business? No thanks.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by _whiteCaps_ on Friday December 15, 2023 @01:01PM (#38656735)
I agree with you. Right now I'm going through my grandfather's squadron records. Hoping to find the day that he crashed his motorcycle in Normandy to see what the CO thought about that. Apparently the other pilots were unhappy with him because they were banned from riding motorcycles after that.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by blauditore on Friday December 15, 2023 @03:37AM (#38652237)
I don't think this is universally true. Some people actually make an effort to sort the stuff of their grandparents in the attic and figure out what still has some (emotional) value. But it's probably a minority of people.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by lanstin on Friday December 15, 2023 @01:08PM (#38656802)
It's the volume problem - I'm happy to read handwritten pages of my mom's diary from the 1960s, but the reams of laser printer out put from her master's degree in 2000s? Not so much.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by rytis on Friday December 15, 2023 @02:12AM (#38651797)
What about that long forgotten BTC wallet?
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by Mtinie on Friday December 15, 2023 @02:19AM (#38651828)
Without a private key that is readily accessible? Worthless,
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by lebed2045 on Friday December 15, 2023 @03:12AM (#38652094)
Wallet by definition has private key within it. Without key is just an address.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by mnd999 on Friday December 15, 2023 @03:35AM (#38652229)
I think ‘readily accessible’ was the important bit.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by 93po on Friday December 15, 2023 @11:03AM (#38655429)
I don't follow. The wallet is the private key, along with some other info.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by I_AM_A_SMURF on Friday December 15, 2023 @10:26PM (#38661456)
The wallet could be encrypted with a strong password and thus inaccessible.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by mnd999 on Saturday December 16, 2023 @09:24AM (#38664396)
Yes, but any unknown password is enough to put most people off, particular if the contents of the wallet is unknown.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by smcleod on Friday December 15, 2023 @04:58AM (#38652641)
Oh man I’d love to have all the data of my parents, grandparents etc… even just having analogue records is interesting I’d love to know what kinds of hobbies they had like collecting digital music, art, books etc.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by looping8 on Friday December 15, 2023 @05:14AM (#38652715)
I think you and the previous commenter have very different opinions on what "all" means. Connecting to parents and grandparents by knowing what art they like is one thing, but, for example, I have hundreds of photos of random bills and documents that I need to remember for later. None of my descendents would ever want to read through that unless they were investigating my life like in a movie.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by lanstin on Friday December 15, 2023 @01:07PM (#38656784)
My most frequent type of data in my personal archive is screen shots of tumblr posts that my oldest child like to take when they were 12 and we all shared photo saving account.

I do snap bills and white boards to remember but not with the eager enthusiasm of the long since grown up child.

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by amelius on Friday December 15, 2023 @05:51AM (#38652907)
The next generation will just run an LLM to mine the interesting parts out of the data.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by guenthert on Friday December 15, 2023 @06:36AM (#38653130)
Or tell an even more interesting story, 'cause that's what they want to hear.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by JKCalhoun on Friday December 15, 2023 @08:06AM (#38653759)
Because I have been interested in my dead relatives, and because I suspect somewhere down the line someone will be interested in my living ones, I have been trying to capture their lives in books I have created (real books — printed at Lulu.com).
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by gergo_b on Monday December 18, 2023 @05:54AM (#38681077)
That seems nice! Thank you for the idea.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by seanhunter on Friday December 15, 2023 @03:18AM (#38652122)
Only a matter of a really really _really_ long time and an absolutely unimaginably huge amount of energy.

All the energy released by converting all mass in the solar system into energy apparently gives a hard physical limit just above 2^225 elementary computations before you run out of gas so brute forcing a 256-bit symmetric key seems entirely unfeasible even if all of humanities resources were dedicated to the problem. The calculation is presented here https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/6141/amount-of-... . Waaay out of my field though so this calculation could be off or I could be misunderstanding somehow.

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by idiotsecant on Friday December 15, 2023 @04:33AM (#38652509)
If, for example, someone has a computer capable of computing with a large number of qbits a lot of cryptography has less substantial break requirements.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by segfaultbuserr on Friday December 15, 2023 @07:28AM (#38653476)
Good idea - If you really do want to encrypt some data with hopes that it's recoverable by future archeologists, just use 128-bit symmetric ciphers (and remember not to use 256-bit ones). Hopefully Glover's algorithm can eventually brute-force it once large quantum computers are invented.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by galeaspablo on Friday December 15, 2023 @04:02AM (#38652379)
We will be able to crack today’s encryption algorithms in the future because we’ll find flaws in them. In other words, one day brute force won’t be necessary!

Have a look at this post, which illustrates this reality being true for hash functions (where similar principles as symmetric and asymmetric encryption apply). https://valerieaurora.org/hash.html

Notice Valerie specifically calls out, “Long semi-mathematical posts comparing the complexity of the attack to the number of protons in the universe”.

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by GTP on Friday December 15, 2023 @05:11AM (#38652695)
> illustrates this reality being true for hash functions (where similar principles as symmetric and asymmetric encryption apply)

I think you're making a bit of confusion. hash functions are part of symmetric key cryptography, while asymmetric cryptography is public key cryptography that is very different from hash functions.

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by galeaspablo on Friday December 15, 2023 @08:08AM (#38653774)
No. Hash functions can be used outside of symmetric encryption. Which is the wording I used.

In any case, the overall point remains. Short of the one time pad you can’t build a provably flawless scheme.

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by GTP on Friday December 15, 2023 @08:42AM (#38654071)
They can be used outside symmetric encryption, e.g. in signature schemes, but the hashing primitives are part of symmetric cryptography.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by galeaspablo on Saturday December 16, 2023 @07:13AM (#38663686)
Again, I didn’t say symmetric cryptography :)
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by GTP on Monday December 18, 2023 @09:02AM (#38682620)
You talked about symmetric encryption.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by segfaultbuserr on Friday December 15, 2023 @07:45AM (#38653584)
> We will be able to crack today’s encryption algorithms in the future because we’ll find flaws in them.

Big if.

We already knew how to design good and strong symmetric ciphers way back in the 1970s. One of the standard blocking blocks of modern symmetric cipher is called the Feistel network, which was used to create DES. Despite that it's the first widely used encryption standard, even today there's essentially no known flaw in its basic design. It was broken only because the key was artificially weakened to 56 bits. In the 1980s, cryptographers already knew 128 bit really should be the minimum security standard in spite of what NSA officially claimed. In the 1990s, when faster computers meant more overhead was acceptable, people agreed that symmetric ciphers should have an extra 256-bit option to protect them from any possible future breakthrough.

There are only two possible ways to break them, perhaps people will eventually find a flaw in Feistel network ciphers to enable classical attacks against all security levels, but it would require a groundbreaking mathematical breakthrough unimaginable today, so it's possible but unlikely. Another route is quantum computing. If it's possible to build a large quantum computer, all 128-bit ciphers will eventually be brute-forced by Glover's algorithm. On the other hand, 256-bit ciphers will still be immune (and people already put this defense in place long before post-quantum cryptography became a serious research topic).

Thus, if you want a future archeologist from the 23rd century to decrypt your data, only use 128-bit symmetric ciphers.

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by galeaspablo on Friday December 15, 2023 @08:11AM (#38653802)
Placing no time constraints, my gut tells me it’s almost inevitable those breakthroughs will eventually come. Either in mathematics or quantum computing. Or both.

Namely I’d ask when not if. My opinion is that short of the one time pad, we won’t come up with provably unbreakable schemes.

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by segfaultbuserr on Friday December 15, 2023 @09:04AM (#38654250)
> Namely I’d ask when not if.

The big assumption of cryptography is that, there exists some problems that are not provably unsolvable but difficult enough for almost any practical purposes. To engineers, no assumption can be more reasonable than that. Given unlimited time, it's a provable fact that any (brand new) processor with asynchronous input signal will malfunction due to metastability in digital circuits, it's also a provable fact that metastability is a fundamental flaw in all digital electronics - but computers still work because the MTBF can be made as large as necessary, longer than the lifetime of the Solar system if you really want to.

So the only problem here is, how long is the MTBF of today's building blocks of symmetric ciphers? If it's on the scale of 100 years or so, sure, everything is breakable if you're patient. If it's on the scale of 1000 years, well, breaking it is "only" a matter of time. But if it's on the scale of 10000 years, I don't believe it's relevant to the human civilization (as we know it) anymore - your standard may vary.

The problem is that computerized cryptography is a young subject, the best data we have so far is symmetric ciphers tend to be more secure than asymmetric ones. We know that Feistel networks have an excellent safety record and remain unbroken after 50 years. We also know that we can break almost all widely used asymmetric ciphers today with large quantum computers if we can build one, but we can't do the same to symmetric ones - even the ancient DES is unbreakable if it's redesigned to use 256-bit keys. So while nobody knows for sure, but most rational agents will certainly assign higher and higher confidence every year - until a breakthrough occurs.

> My opinion is that short of the one time pad, we won’t come up with provably unbreakable schemes.

Many mathematicians and some physicists may prefer a higher standard of security than "lowly" practical engineers. This is the main motivation behind quantum cryptography - rather than placing security on empirical observations, its slogan is that the security is placed on the laws of physics. Many have pointed that the this slogan is misleading: any practical form of quantum cryptography must exist in the engineering sense, and there will certainly be some forms of security flaws such as sensor imperfection or at least side channels... That being said, I certainly understand why it looks so attractive to many people if you're the kind of person who really worry about provability.

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by galeaspablo on Saturday December 16, 2023 @07:38AM (#38663787)
> your standard may vary.

Agreed. My overall / initial point was that I can’t say the time to crack = the time to brute force and start talking about the age of the universe. 10,000 years is a blink of an eye in that timescale.

> quantum cryptography

Quantum cryptography is most helpful in detecting eavesdropping (due to the no clone theorem). Quantum cryptography is helpful in avoiding asymmetric encryption for key exchange when communicating with symmetric encryption. Eg BB84. And given asymmetric encryption is most vulnerable to quantum attacks (compared to symmetric), quantum cryptography improves today’s state of the art. BUT, I insist that none of this gives provably uncrackable schemes.

AND it might be that we never build such a scheme. After all we have Godel’s incompleteness theorem lying around.

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by cdchn on Friday December 15, 2023 @01:27AM (#38651580)
Using what kind of media?
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by nemo44x on Friday December 15, 2023 @08:35AM (#38654021)
Why not use a dead man’s switch that reveals the password if you don’t respond within a year?
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by asdefghyk on Friday December 15, 2023 @07:04PM (#38660385)
RE 50TB/year, or $100 of storage How is this storage amount obtained for that price ?
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by kjellsbells on Friday December 15, 2023 @08:43PM (#38661001)
Definitely a threat at the nation-state actor level, the NSA are already providing guidance on how to use encryption today that is resistant to future advances in computation that would data recorded today to be decrypted later.

https://www.nsa.gov/Press-Room/Press-Releases-Statements/Pre...