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Re:Intel launches Core Ultra processors, can it compete with... by ExoticPearTree on Thursday December 14, 2023 @11:58AM (#38643643)
> Apple makes consumer electronics.

Actually, Apple is being used in the enterprise more and more. Its a developer darling and because for a few good years now there's real Office for Mac and combined with very good MDM capabilities it stopped being a consumer device quite a while back.

Re:Intel launches Core Ultra processors, can it compete with... by amelius on Thursday December 14, 2023 @12:08PM (#38643824)
Being used in != designed for

Industry applications are calling for general purpose computing. Yet Apple only delivers products and services aimed at end consumers.

Re:Intel launches Core Ultra processors, can it compete with... by jbverschoor on Thursday December 14, 2023 @12:26PM (#38644092)
Tbh, Intel hasn’t been designed for anything. It’s an organically grown isa, based on legacy and monopolist market share
Re:Intel launches Core Ultra processors, can it compete with... by amelius on Thursday December 14, 2023 @05:24PM (#38648187)
Maybe not being designed for anything is better than being designed for a specific audience.
Re:Intel launches Core Ultra processors, can it compete with... by kube-system on Thursday December 14, 2023 @12:15PM (#38643930)
iPhones, iPads, and Macs are general purpose computers, by any commonly accepted definition.

> Apple only delivers products and services aimed at end consumers.

That is categorically untrue

e.g https://www.apple.com/business/

Re:Intel launches Core Ultra processors, can it compete with... by JohnBooty on Thursday December 14, 2023 @12:30PM (#38644152)
Can you list some of the "general purpose computing" tasks used by "businesses" for which Macs aren't suitable?

I mean, they're certainly not the price leaders, but you seem to be saying that Macs are downright unsuited to things "businesses" do.

Re:Intel launches Core Ultra processors, can it compete with... by amelius on Thursday December 14, 2023 @01:59PM (#38645563)
Imagine you're a car manufacturer. You are looking for a fast single-board computer with fast GPU for your FSD capabilities (say). The Apple Mini might fit the bill. How are you going to do this without rebranding everything about the Mini? You want the car to start up without the Apple logo on the screen, nor the Apple startup chime. Nor do you want system update notifications. Basically you want to remove the entire OS.

Replace car manufacturer by medical equipment manufacturer, etc.

Re:Intel launches Core Ultra processors, can it compete with... by duskwuff on Thursday December 14, 2023 @05:15PM (#38648090)
None of what you're describing is "general-purpose computing".
Re:Intel launches Core Ultra processors, can it compete with... by amelius on Thursday December 14, 2023 @05:27PM (#38648216)
It is general purpose computing from the perspective that a client company can build anything they want with it. Which is not true for Apple products. They are end user products aimed at the end consumer.
Re:Intel launches Core Ultra processors, can it compete with... by zztop44 on Thursday December 14, 2023 @06:56PM (#38649200)
Right, but increasingly many of those “end users” are large businesses.
Re:Intel launches Core Ultra processors, can it compete with... by ExoticPearTree on Friday December 15, 2023 @05:44AM (#38652872)
You are very wrong about this statement. You can't take a Dell/HP/Thinkpad laptop and transform it in the car multimedia device.

You are confusing computer parts with devices. Yes, it is true Apple won't sell you a CPU to put it on the motherboard of your choosing, but it is also true they don't operate in this market.

Re:Intel launches Core Ultra processors, can it compete with... by JohnBooty on Friday December 15, 2023 @02:11AM (#38651795)
Feels like you really moved the goalposts a few times there within the same thread. Bit of a wild ride. First, you were talking about desktop users:

    80% of worldwide desktop users are business users.
Then you moved on to:

    general purpose computing
Which could mean a lot of things, but based on the context -- a thread about the latest chips that Intel has created for the desktop/notebook market -- it sure seemed like we were talking about that.

Now you've focused on a subset of general purpose computing: embedded computing options.

Well, you are correct. Apple, like many computer manufacturers and chip makers, does not compete in the embedded space. Seems like a curious thing to point out since nobody was talking about it and nobody was under any illusions that competes there but hey, you're right.

Can I play too? Apple does not compete in the toaster oven market. Apple does not compete in the inertial guidance systems market for cruise missiles. Apple does not manufacture sneakers. Look at me, being correct over here.

Re:Intel launches Core Ultra processors, can it compete with... by wiseowise on Friday December 15, 2023 @03:01AM (#38652043)
You’ve described really narrow embedded niche which has nothing to do with general computing.
Re:Intel launches Core Ultra processors, can it compete with... by airstrike on Thursday December 14, 2023 @12:17PM (#38643953)
> there's real Office for Mac

which sucks balls, if I may say so, as a self-appointed Office expert

Re:Intel launches Core Ultra processors, can it compete with... by steve1977 on Thursday December 14, 2023 @01:54PM (#38645482)
There’s been a real Office for Mac for multiple decades
Re:Intel launches Core Ultra processors, can it compete with... by rrdharan on Thursday December 14, 2023 @08:38PM (#38650051)
Yes we all remember the Bill Gates hovering over Jobs event and the investment announcement and confirmation of Office for OS X. I think what the parent was referring to though is performance of macOS Office was trash until like Office 2016 or maybe Office 2019 (with multiple earlier hiccups along the way e.g. the delay on the x86 port etc.).
Re:Intel launches Core Ultra processors, can it compete with... by caeril on Thursday December 14, 2023 @04:23PM (#38647434)
> Its a developer darling

While this is undoubtedly true, I still don't comprehend why.

The development workflow on linux is an order of magnitude better than on OSX. Package management is built into the distro, the directory structure is sane, LUKS is (probably) less likely to be backdoored by the NSA than FileVault, you can use keyboard-centric window managers, tiling window managers, etc, far more of the system is available/configurable via scripting or terminal, you don't get grey screens of death regularly, it doesn't send tons of telemetry back to the mothership, and you don't have to reset the PRAM and SMC every goddamn week just to get the thing to boot.

OSX is probably only a "good" comparative developer experience if you're forced to use XCode for something. Otherwise, it's a disaster.

Re:Intel launches Core Ultra processors, can it compete with... by Jensson on Thursday December 14, 2023 @05:49PM (#38648477)
> While this is undoubtedly true, I still don't comprehend why.

If you want to make ios apps you need an Apple computer. Then people get used to it and like most people they will say they prefer whatever they are used to.

Re:Intel launches Core Ultra processors, can it compete with... by Aloisius on Thursday December 14, 2023 @06:51PM (#38649144)
> you don't get grey screens of death regularly

Is this a thing that happens to people? I haven't seen one in a decade.

> and you don't have to reset the PRAM and SMC every goddamn week just to get the thing to boot.

The last time I did that was maybe 5 years ago.

Re:Intel launches Core Ultra processors, can it compete with... by FpUser on Thursday December 14, 2023 @08:36PM (#38650030)
>"While this is undoubtedly true, I still don't comprehend why."

If one develops apps for Apple ecosystem then it is must have. If not - I'd say it is a darling of some specific categories of users. Not your general developer.

Personally except couple of encounters I do not need to develop for Mac, hence I do not have it and could not care less if the brand disappears tomorrow. You can't really generalize here

Re:Intel launches Core Ultra processors, can it compete with... by alephnan on Thursday December 14, 2023 @06:37PM (#38648998)
> The development workflow on linux is an order of magnitude better than on OSX.

I guess your workflow doesn’t include getting Linux to work.

As in, if you run into an issue, you’re somewhat on your own because of your unique Linux setup. Maybe except if you’re on Ubuntu or something.

On Mac, you can more easily Google search for people with similar environment settings who failed building dependencies in the same way

Re:Intel launches Core Ultra processors, can it compete with... by kaashif on Thursday December 14, 2023 @11:00PM (#38650829)
> As in, if you run into an issue, you’re somewhat on your own because of your unique Linux setup. Maybe except if you’re on Ubuntu or something.

But uhh, I do just use Ubuntu? I haven't even changed the wallpaper. Everything works, nothing has broken in years.

Surely Linux doesn't have to mean some kind of special snowflake Gentoo setup.

Re:Intel launches Core Ultra processors, can it compete with... by e-brake on Friday December 15, 2023 @02:39AM (#38651919)
If you are spending time getting it to work, I'm not sure that's a bad thing. It makes you a better developer!
Re:Intel launches Core Ultra processors, can it compete with... by wiseowise on Friday December 15, 2023 @02:59AM (#38652031)
Sysadmining your machine doesn’t make you a better developer.
Re:Intel launches Core Ultra processors, can it compete with... by wiseowise on Friday December 15, 2023 @02:57AM (#38652017)
I want my machine to just work, not being another programming environment and Macs give me that.

> you don't get grey screens of death regularly, it doesn't send tons of telemetry back to the mothership, and you don't have to reset the PRAM and SMC every goddamn week just to get the thing to boot.

I’ve been using Macs only for 5 years straight and have no idea what you’re talking about.

Also, shortcuts on Mac just make sense, unlike Windows and Linux.

Re:Intel launches Core Ultra processors, can it compete with... by JohnBooty on Friday December 15, 2023 @03:06AM (#38652075)
For the past ten years I've worked at multiple companies where the engineers were issued Macs. We're talking about four companies and several hundred engineers in total.

And friend, this is nonsense right here:

    you don't get grey screens of death regularly, [...] 
    and you don't have to reset the PRAM and SMC every 
    goddamn week just to get the thing to boot.
I don't know where you've been working or what the maniacs around you have been doing to your Macs, but I guess I worked with the luckiest ~250 Mac owners in the world because that stuff was not a thing for us.
Re:Intel launches Core Ultra processors, can it compete with... by alpaca128 on Friday December 15, 2023 @03:21AM (#38652146)
> Package management is built into the distro

Brew can be installed with one command and a couple minutes of waiting time.

> you don't get grey screens of death regularly [...] and you don't have to reset the PRAM and SMC every goddamn week just to get the thing to boot.

I've been using a Mac for a year now and I have no idea what you're talking about. So far it hasn't crashed once or had any other problems except for a few bugs in preinstalled applications.

I'm not saying it's better than Linux but everything is preconfigured well enough so I don't constantly get annoyed by about everything that comes out of the box. The terminal and browser work pretty much exactly the same on both operating systems. OSX isn't great but at least it's not Windows and the hardware is amazing.

Re:Intel launches Core Ultra processors, can it compete with... by DeathArrow on Friday December 15, 2023 @04:20AM (#38652451)
All I care about for development is to have Visual Studio, VS Code and Docker.
Re:Intel launches Core Ultra processors, can it compete with... by ExoticPearTree on Friday December 15, 2023 @05:53AM (#38652918)
I think you are basing this on your dislike of MacOS. And statements like "LUKS is (probably) less likely to be backdoored by the NSA than FileVault" will not win you any credibility points.

For developers, MacOS brings the UI friendliness of Windows with full capability of a *NIX machine. Basically you get the best of best worlds and with MDM capabilities on top which companies actually like and need very much.

Re:Intel launches Core Ultra processors, can it compete with... by d3w4s9 on Thursday December 14, 2023 @07:01PM (#38649254)
developers are a very small group among "enterprise" customers. Ever seen a non-software company? Or maybe just look at what HR or sales people at your company use. More likely it's Windows rather than Mac.
Re:Intel launches Core Ultra processors, can it compete with... by wiseowise on Friday December 15, 2023 @02:53AM (#38651990)
> Or maybe just look at what HR or sales people at your company use.

MacBook Air.

Re:Intel launches Core Ultra processors, can it compete with... by DeathArrow on Friday December 15, 2023 @04:01AM (#38652365)
>developers are a very small group among "enterprise" customers

I am a developer. And for the last three workplaces we used Windows laptops, even if we targeted Kubernetes\Linux.

Some business people had Macs, though.

Re:Intel launches Core Ultra processors, can it compete with... by ExoticPearTree on Friday December 15, 2023 @05:40AM (#38652852)
Out of curiosity: were you working in startups or enterprise/outsourcing companies in the previous jobs where they gave you Windows laptops?
Re:Intel launches Core Ultra processors, can it compete with... by DeathArrow on Friday December 15, 2023 @07:14AM (#38653370)
No startups, no outsourcing, software companies with their own products.
Re:Intel launches Core Ultra processors, can it compete with... by ExoticPearTree on Friday December 15, 2023 @09:41AM (#38654627)
Thanks for the answer.

I've seen this at companies that started in the 90s or earlier. Newer ones are mostly Macs.