I am already seeing the antisemitic comments calling Jews colonizers, stealing land from indigenous people for 75 years. The one-liners or single-sentence zingers lack context or, often, truth.
I do appreciate comments from people living in that area -- what their lives were and are before and during this conflict.
I do wish that instead of this charged subject on HN, instead an article discussing the history of this land and people living on it. History of empires, conquests, displacements, wars, attacks.
Etymology of the names and Meaning of terms that are being used by both sides.
* What did Zionism mean in 19th and 20th centuries? What does it mean in 21st century?
* What does Anti-Zionism mean?
* Where does the word Palestine come from?
* What really happened in 1948?
* What happened to Gaza Strip under Egyptian rule from 1948 to 1967?
* What happened to West Bank under Jordanian rule from 1948 to 1967?
Discussing history of what happened and what did not would be less explosive and more productive use of great minds on HN, in my opinion.
how is that antisemetic? not all jews support israel in the first place and zionism != judaism.
also, they ARE colonizers. they are building luxury homes on land taken from people who were there without any compensation and forced to live in a ghetto.
Basicly zionists did to palestinians what europeans did to jews. Its shocking to me because up till recently I mistakenly expected the jewish people to be more compassionate given their history.
Lastly you don’t know well documented history connecting Jews to that area for millennia with evidence of Jews inhabiting that area before even Mohammed was born. People who belong in the area and who furthermore buy large portions of it are not colonizers by any definition of the word.
a very zionist talking point
> history of British Palestine Mandate, history of Jews buying land in that area and UN offering a partition that Jews accepted while Arabs did not.
british conquered that land yes. that dosen't mean they had the moral authority to give it away to people who weren't from there.
> Lastly you don’t know well documented history connecting Jews to that area for millennia with evidence of Jews inhabiting that area
I don't know how anyone in teh west wouldn't know given that jesus was a Palestinian JEW and abraham the original jew was from iraq.
there have been palestinian jews there the whole time. they coexisted just fine with the other arabs. what hasn't been fine is europeans coming in and driving out the locals because they claim they own the land based on a 3000 year gap. I mean thats freaking ludicrous. by that same logic, descendents of slaves here in america are entitled to a plot of land in africa somwhere. as does every irish and italian immigrant in the united states to their respective home countries.
dibs passed down by imaginary sky daddy in your magic book does not constitute a legitemate chain of custody in any raional society. In any other circumstance, it would be harmless fun but people are literally being genocided over this.
Israel exists and we can't really go back at this point but at the very least we need acknowledge that the apartheid israel is running is a human rights violation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH8JrDGZD2k&ab_channel=Decla...
I suspect that you believe that Jews colonized British Mandate Palestine in 19th and 20th century culminating with the creation of the state of Israel.
I also suspect that you believe that the state of Israel doesn’t have the right to exist and need to cease its existance
they took land that didn't belong to them by gunpoint and forced the locals to relocate. Thats Is TEXTBOOK colonization. Its bad enough that it happened in teh past. the fact that they are CONTINUING to do it in the west bank just cements my opinion about that.
> I suspect that you believe that Jews colonized British Mandate Palestine in 19th and 20th century culminating with the creation of the state of Israel
yes becuse nothing is more important the opions of 19tha nd 20th century white populated countries when it comes to the affairs of people in their coloies
> I also suspect that you believe that the state of Israel doesn’t have the right to exist and need to cease its existance
I used to believe in a 2 state solution. maybe it could still work. but after seeing what zionists have been doing to palestinians for the last 50 years (and esspecially the last 3 months) I think its best if all the european jews in israel went back to their respective countries. more of us out here are feeling that way after seeing just how straight up EVIL the IDF is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bybyUTIU-qo&ab_channel=DWDoc... (3 years aho)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMYEHhCkedo&ab_channel=TheGu...)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LumgWaM72nU&ab_channel=Mondo...)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coOptDiwyrU&ab_channel=SkyNe...)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFtECuh15Rw&ab_channel=AlJaz...)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2a80ZQXfFs&ab_channel=TRTWo...)
can you explain to me why the IDF doesn't enforce teh UN rules equally and keep settlers out of the west bank whihch the UN rules belongs to Palestinians?
can you expalin why children as young as 10 years old are held in military prisons and military courts with no accesss to due process and sentanced to as much as a decade for throwing a rock?
can you explain why Israelis are filing in wells with concrete?
can you explain why why the IDF needed to execute women and children sheltering from the seige in a school? they were shot close to point blank range
I suspect that you are strongly biased. but the zionist arguemnt falls apart pretty quickly by anyone actually doing any reserach with an unbiasted view.
it really falls down to "god promised it to us" "british people promised it to us" "it was ours 3000 years ago"
NONE of thses arguments would be valid for ANY other people. so why are zionists so special in this regard? what makes you so special that you can commit HEINOUS human rights violations on MY TAX dollars?
Again, I used to be supportive of a 2 stage solution but after these last two months, yes, I'm strongly on the side of the palestinians at thsi point. for the same rason I would have sided with jews during the holocaust and black africans during teh apartheid.
to put it susccinctly
I'd rather be a black man in america than a uighur in china but Id rather be a uighur in china than a palestinian in gaza.
you wanna show that israel is a beacon of democracy in the middle east? how about demonstrating first that its not an authoritarian ethnostate with good PR.
a good start would be NOT jailing israeli citizens for speaking out against the genocide (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5SMzQzdnZw&ab_channel=Democ...)
notice I have not called for violence. I'm merely asserting that israel is running an apratheid state and committing human rights violations. I have provided links to back up my assertions.
evil prevails when good men do nothing and I'll burn my karma to make sure people know whats going on.
^^^^^^^^^^^ > I too disagree with the current West Bank settlement policies, but I suspect that your calling Jews COLONIZERS is not based on this issue. they took land that didn't belong to them by gunpoint and forced the locals to relocate. Thats Is TEXTBOOK colonization. Its bad enough that it happened in teh past. the fact that they are CONTINUING to do it in the west bank just cements my opinion about that.
> I suspect that you believe that Jews colonized British Mandate Palestine in 19th and 20th century culminating with the creation of the state of Israel
yes becuse nothing is more important the opions of 19tha nd 20th century white populated countries when it comes to the affairs of people in their coloies
> I also suspect that you believe that the state of Israel doesn’t have the right to exist and need to cease its existance
I used to believe in a 2 state solution. maybe it could still work. but after seeing what zionists have been doing to palestinians for the last 50 years (and esspecially the last 3 months) I think its best if all the european jews in israel went back to their respective countries. more of us out here are feeling that way after seeing just how straight up EVIL the IDF is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bybyUTIU-qo&ab_channel=DWDoc... (3 years aho)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMYEHhCkedo&ab_channel=TheGu...)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LumgWaM72nU&ab_channel=Mondo...)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coOptDiwyrU&ab_channel=SkyNe...)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFtECuh15Rw&ab_channel=AlJaz...)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2a80ZQXfFs&ab_channel=TRTWo...)
can you explain to me why the IDF doesn't enforce teh UN rules equally and keep settlers out of the west bank whihch the UN rules belongs to Palestinians?
can you expalin why children as young as 10 years old are held in military prisons and military courts with no accesss to due process and sentanced to as much as a decade for throwing a rock?
can you explain why Israelis are filing in wells with concrete?
can you explain why why the IDF needed to execute women and children sheltering from the seige in a school? they were shot close to point blank range
I suspect that you are strongly biased. but the zionist arguemnt falls apart pretty quickly by anyone actually doing any reserach with an unbiasted view.
it really falls down to "god promised it to us" "british people promised it to us" "it was ours 3000 years ago"
NONE of thses arguments would be valid for ANY other people. so why are zionists so special in this regard? what makes you so special that you can commit HEINOUS human rights violations on MY TAX dollars?
Again, I used to be supportive of a 2 stage solution but after these last two months, yes, I'm strongly on the side of the palestinians at thsi point. for the same rason I would have sided with jews during the holocaust and black africans during teh apartheid.
to put it susccinctly
I'd rather be a black man in america than a uighur in china but Id rather be a uighur in china than a palestinian in gaza.
you wanna show that israel is a beacon of democracy in the middle east? how about demonstrating first that its not an authoritarian ethnostate with good PR.
a good start would be NOT jailing israeli citizens for speaking out against the genocide (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5SMzQzdnZw&ab_channel=Democ...)
Let’s try to have a discussion while focusing on one subject at a time.
One subject that stands out is you calling Jews colonizers.
It’s indisputable that the Jewish history in the area of modern day Israel goes back thousands of years.
These areas were in fact colonized by Romans, then Ottomans, then by the British. Many Jews were expelled during these colonizations.
The act of migration of Jews back to what is present day Israel in 1948 was NOT colonization but a return of indigenous people to their homeland.
Words have meanings. Colonization means something. Jews return to Israel was not it. Apartheid means something. Israeli Arabs enjoy the same rights as non-Arab Israelis, they serve in the government, Supreme Court and even the IDF if they choose to. Israel is not an apartheid state because it does not segregate its citizens by race/ethnicity.
> yes becuse nothing is more important the opions of 19tha nd 20th century white populated countries when it comes to the affairs of people in their coloies
In spite of sounding fairly racist, you are historically correct - opinions of white populated countries - Britain and France - as well as the League of Nations - were in fact important because in 1920s they helped sketch the borders of future Arab nation-states we such as Kingdom of Jordan, Syria, Iraq, etc and ultimately led to emergence of Arab nationalism that shaped these Middle East countries.
If you invalidate UN partition of British Mandate Palestine by saying “oh British people promised to us”, then you will have to invalidate most of Arab Nation states in the Arabian Peninsula. You also invalidate the sovereignty of both India and Pakistan.
> I think it’s best if all the european jews in israel went back to their respective countries.
What about the Mizrahi Israelis of middle eastern & North African origin? They constitute close to 70% of Israeli Jews.
What about non-Mizrahi Jews who were born in Israel and who have no cultural or ethnic connections to European countries you speak of.
What do you propose be done to them.
whats barely coherent about this? Ive provided context as well as links to reputable sources (journalists on the ground documenting whats goig on) backing them up yet you casually dismiss them like I'm posting videos to flat earther vids. its doesn't take much for an unbiased observer to realize that what zionists are doing is not right. Please examine your own biases and at least watch them.
>The act of migration of Jews back to what is present day Israel in 1948 was NOT colonization but a return of indigenous people to their homeland.
and what of the people living there? was it really necessary to force them to relocate "trail of tears" style? we are taught in history books that it wa sa tradjedy on native american peoples. how is this any different?
>These areas were in fact colonized by Romans, then Ottomans, then by the British. Many Jews were expelled during these colonizations.
and they are welcome back there if their intention is to peacefully coexist. the issue is that there is an occupation. the rights of the palestinians are suppressed in order to maintain a far right ethnostate.
> Israeli Arabs enjoy the same rights as non-Arab Israelis,
and palestinians in the west bank are subject to something very akin to apartheid. Please tell me why it was necessary to have hundres of children as young as 10 years old doing prison time in israeli miliary courts? how does that not immediately light up a red flag in the back of your mind that something isn't right?
> If you invalidate UN partition of British Mandate Palestine by saying “oh British people promised to us”, then you will have to invalidate most of Arab Nation states in the Arabian Peninsula. You also invalidate the sovereignty of both India and Pakistan.
india and pakistan agreed to that rift. the division between muslims and hindus was largely manufactured by the british as part of their means of keeping colonies under their control. I have plenty of criticisms about modhi and his far right hindu nationalist mindset bit thats goign off topic.
> What about the Mizrahi Israelis of middle eastern & North African origin? They constitute close to 70% of Israeli Jews.
Im not opposed to european jews living in the region. I'm opposed to the occupation and subjugation of the palestinian people. let them return to live in israel and grant ALL of them citizenship and right to due process that is afforded to israeli citizens. make the israeli government a place where both paletinians AND israelis can pursue justice and you might find peace is within reach.
Hamas is a terrorist organization. they are perfectly fine killing civilians to achieve their goal. if we establish that the willingness to harm civilians in pursuit of miltary advantage is the mark of a terrorist, please tell me how the IDF is any different here? I've already sent you several youtube links from journalistic sources highlighting the human rights atrocities of the IDF as well as the human rights violations of israeli settlers in the west bank against palestinians. most recent of which being a mass killing in a school involving literal children. People turn to terrorism when there are no avenues to justice.
This is exactly what netinyahu wants. force palestinians to need hamas so that he can use (fear of ) hamas to perpeuate his far right regime. peace could be achieved fairly easily if it was an option the far right of israel wanted. but that would mean accepting paletsinans with open arms and making them first class citizens alongside jews in israel. But that gets in the way of his aspirations for an ethnostate.
You deserve a flag for this behaviour alone.
Does HN have a policy against epistemic soundness in claims? Because if there is a method that is maximally useful for these sorts of issues, it is disciplined epistemology. Yet, I know of no explicit policy on it, but I have been subjected to scolding for practicing it, suggesting there is an implicit policy, at least to some degree (perhaps only on some topics, who knows). Or, an error has been made....which once again is an epistemological matter.
If people refuse to even try to utilize the tools that exist, and discussion of that phenomenon is disallowed, it may not be optimal game play....and sometimes, suboptimal gameplay results in large quantities of death. Is curiosity about that a good thing?
(And yes, I do realize that the culture we've been raised in has taught us that statements like mine "are" necessarily "in bad faith", though mine is not actually.)
This, for starters:
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-epistemic/
You know that word "is" you use now and then? That word is fundamentally based in epistemology.
> and sometimes, suboptimal gameplay results in large quantities of death. Is curiosity about that a good thing?
Do you understand that part?
I will add some clarity: by "suboptimal gameplay", I am referring to the individual and collective behaviour of human beings, as it relates to causality (the consequences of our behaviour).
I am basically asking what HN's stance is on being curious about "large" quantities of (at least plausibly) unnecessary human death.
Are you asking about how one can possibly be "curious" in the face of a catastrophe like this, and what that even means? I think that's a legit question. If curiosity means a detached-technical attitude, that is not an appropriate response to this topic and could in some forms even be monstrous. But that's not what I mean here. What I do mean, I tried to describe at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38616823 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38616662. It has to do with being open to others.
I am asking: can you be curious about whether it may have be possible for these (and future) deaths to be avoided, had some humans acted differently than they had?
I suspect this may seem like a very strange question, and I propose that that is an artifact of the problem.
> If curiosity means a detached-technical attitude, that is not an appropriate response to this topic...
Here you are representing a subjective belief as knowledge, on a matter where people's lives are at stake. Can you be curious about whether this approach as a moderator on a website frequented by some of the most powerful minds on the planet may be preventing lives from being saved, or whether it is part of the underlying causality of why these powerful minds can't keep it together when discussing topics like this (which may also contribute to the causality underlying deaths)?
> Can you be curious about whether this approach as a moderator on a website frequented by some of the most powerful minds on the planet may be preventing lives from being saved?
This sounds to me, and maybe I'm wrong, like you have some sort of pre-formed opinion about what Dang et al are doing, but are choosing to cast it in the lens of "can you be curious" as a way of avoiding just directly saying what you think.
I certainly do. And, it is worth noting that while all beliefs are opinions, not all are merely opinion.
Is your read on me better than mine on you? How much experience do you have in the domain?
> but are choosing to cast it in the lens of "can you be curious" as a way of avoiding just directly saying what you think.
My strategy is to use deliberately unusual language in order to break people out of System 1 / LLM / Colloquial mode.
Clearly it is not working, have you any advice for me now that we've at least somewhat, perhaps, broken the 4th wall?
Reminder: thousands have died already, more will (presumably) in the short run, and MANY more in the long run. I appreciate this may not be a pleasant experience, but the stakes are not exactly low.
On HN, we go by article quality rather than site quality. This has been the case for many years: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so....
I attempted to give a detailed explanation of how that relates to the current thread in these comments:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38620928
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38618471
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38617464
If you read those and still have a question that isn't answered there, I can take a crack at it.
I agree with you about this:
> everyone who clicks on this will have an opinion that’s not, well, academic let’s say
... but as I've explained elsewhere in this thread, I don't think suppressing the topic outright is a solution either (I mean a solution to the particular constraints of this site, not in general).
So what do we do? We each work in ourselves to find a larger space than just our own opinion. We make room for the other alongside ourselves. If we can do that, we'll be able to comment from a place of openness rather than battle. For those who feel too intensely to do so: that is human—let's just be aware enough to recognize that state in ourselves and refrain from posting as long as we're in that state.
* https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...