[Small addition: I've actually seen videos of (alleged) hamas torture, particularly the torture and killing of a specific woman, from Oct 7, not taken down from TOS. I just was under the impression, because there are literally more Palestinian dead people, there will be more photos of dead Palestinians.]
[Edited to add, since I'm apparently posting too fast: no, I really do mean there were censored videos of that naked woman in the back of a hamas truck from Oct 7! And that one video of an Israeli woman who lives close enough to the bombing that she can hear it in the context that it gives her peace to know the bombing is happening!]
> Another possible explanation for this skew is that TikTok and IG are primarily *video* platforms [...] The *videos* of destruction and death in Gaza are far more horrific than corresponding *videos* in Israel
TikTok's "Community Guidelines" [0] read:
> We do not allow gory, gruesome, disturbing, or extremely violent content.
If a video depicting torture and killing wasn't taken down, either the poor moderators stuck viewing all this stuff just hadn't gotten to it yet or it was a failure in some way to enforce the TOS; not an indication that the TOS allows it.
[0] https://www.tiktok.com/community-guidelines/en/sensitive-mat...
And another: https://oct7map.com/
We know now that a lot of the 1100+ that died in the oct7 attack were IDF. That the IDF shot at festival goes indiscriminately from attack helicopters. That the 40 babies story was a lie.
So how many civilliants died on oct7 at the hands of Hamas?
Also, how is hostage taking different is Hamas does it? Because a lot of the palestinian prisoners exchanged where (a) not subjected to trial, and (b) children. Hamas takes prisoners = hostages; Israel takes prisoners = security measures (of what ever euphemism you like).
Let's perhaps first back up; what would actually convince you that atrocities and crimes against humanity occurred on October 7th?
I want proof of the 40 babies story, or it simply did not happen. Israel govt released data showing only 1 infant died (possible "collateral" as well).
I have no trust in these blown up stories that seem to have no proof, and quickly blow over. Remember the "killing babies from incubators" lie that was told by the Kuweiti ambassador's daughter back when Iraq invaded Kuweit? It was proven to be a lie.
Your links do not show clear proof of your claims. So, politely, please back it up, or stop spreading lies.
1. https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1729487180630786219
- Uniformed Gazan fighters (not just Hamas/Al-Qasam, but also PIJ's Saraya Al-Quds, PFLP and some others) breaking the fence infrastructure (cams, remote controlled sentry gun towers, fence walls, fence itself, drone footage, preparations the night before - it shows that fighters of various groups commingled quite a bit). Fighters attacking Israel's military installations (border crossings, destroying some stationary military vehicles not manned at the time, etc.)
- Gazan fighters running around, or riding on motorcycles and pickup trucks, shooting at people and vehicles from small arms, and kidnapping people. This is the bulk of actual action in available footage.
- Footage of masses going from Gaza and looting settlements in Gaza envelope.
- Some grenade throwing into enclosed spaces with people inside.
- Almost no footage of fighters fighting with Israel army's armor, almost no footage of torture.
- No footage of child killings (there's some footage where only parents were killed and children left living). Small children were ~1% of killed victims on Oct 7, so lack of footage is not surprising.
- IDF killing a group of people that was apparently surrendering.
- Videos of IDF attack helicopters shooting at crowds of people and cars.
Footage of aftermath:
- Lots of footage of dead, burned bodies, either in cars or in houses. It's not clear who these people are a lot of the time, or who caused the fire, or how they died. (Israel overcounted its casualties by ~2 hundreds, due to misidentification of burned bodies.)
- At least 7 videos of corpse abuse by Israelis in the aftermath.
Oftentimes it's clear who's doing what, whether fighters or mob. Sometimes it's not.
Lot of "barbarity" of "Hamas" as portrayed in the media or even by some politicians, is made up/overblown (oven baked babies, 40 beheaded babies, children/people collected together tied and burned alive intentionally, ...). It seems to be designed to show that Hamas is way different in humanity than IDF, or whatnot, but it just ends up throwing doubt on other eyewitness descriptions of gruesome things that may be truthful.
There's an article in Haaretz about this problem: https://archive.ph/2023.12.03-221527/https://www.haaretz.co....
In any case there are other evidence for that to happen.
I hope that's enough proof for you:https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/06/middleeast/rape-sexual-vi...
Maybe you haven't seen enough of what happened in 10/7 then. I would rather get hit by a bomb then tortured to death in the most horrific way possible.
And also we can't let them prove themselves to be as bad as the Nazis (if we start comparing numbers), it's about preventing it.
Lots of innocents are dying; there is IMO absolutely no amount of reasoning that can justify it, under any circumstances. It's just wrong. It must stop, period.
Unfortunately, I don’t see any other way. But I would be very happy to know of any that will eradicate hamas, and let both sides’ civilians finally live in peace.
In war there can be no justice. Now consider what is more just: not killing perpetrators, or killing innocents? Obviously, not killing is preferable. As Socrates said 2400 years ago, it's worse to commit injustice than to suffer it.
If you want an intelligent commentary on the current situation, please listen to Yuval Noah Harari on Sam Harris' podcast about this.
Israeli people must jail Netanyahu and his gang and negociate seriously for a two-states solution. There is no other way out. Military retaliation has exactly zero role to play here. It only creates more hatred and more Hamas militants to come.
https://www.slowboring.com/p/the-two-state-solution-is-still...
however, jailing Netanyahu and some of his buddies (I’d for sure also put Smotrich and Ben-Gvir in jail, but there are so many more), wouldn’t stop the rocket fire from Gaza – so what is to be done about the rocket fire and infiltration attempts (and, unfortunately, we know now that "iron dome" + "high tech fencing" is not the answer).
So what a civilised country that values human life (especially of its own citizens) should do? What country in the world wouldn’t be running a military action against the rocket launching, hostage capturing, blood thirsty group financed by oil money?
Not bombing people (killing some of the hostages doing so). Make a serious offer for peace. Nothing serious has been done since Rabin's assassination. Both Barak and Olmert's tries were ham-handed, at a time when both Barak and Olmert were about to be ousted from power.
Can't you understand that violence won't solve anything at all? Retaliation won't resuscitate any of the dead. "Eye for an eye" will only make everyone blind in the end.
If Israel want to get back its lost moral up-hand, it has to offer peace, for real. Nothing else will do. If Israelis are serious about being better than the opposing side, than they have to do better than the opposing side, not worse.
I see tons of low quality memes in my feed from Palestinians side.
The same level of quality goes to Palestinian trolls on reddit.
These people who try to push the anti-Israeli narrative as "save the children" by both denying that children were murdered Hamas, and additionally trying to accuse Israel of targeting children, are disguising. I know of these accounts first hand, families that I know personally. I'm reporting this to dang.
So, my condolences to you and the families for the children and other victims. My condolences extends to the world at large. There is a loss is innocence here, for me.
But Israelis do have rock solid allies out here.
On the other hand you have a military superpower killing more than 10k women and children, in the name of atrocities that Israeli journalists found to have been mostly fabricated, most of them killed using weapons built by people browsing here, with actual proofs from leading journals and ONGs around the world, but you decide to get angry at PG just for pointing out actual numbers.
Maybe you're not a white supremacist Rendall Koski, but you sure act like one, which seems to be a common trait amongst Israeli allies anyway.
No, white supremacists argue without mitigation against Israel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Israel
> Some elements within the Ashkenazi Israeli Jewish population have also been described as holding discriminatory attitudes towards fellow Jews of other backgrounds, including against Ethiopian Jews, Indian Jews, Mizrahi Jews, Sephardi Jews, etc. Although intermarriage between Ashkenazim and Sephardim/Mizrahim is increasingly common in Israel, and social integration is constantly improving, disparities continue to persist. Ethiopian Jews in particular have faced discrimination from non-Black Jews. It has been suggested that the situation of the Ethiopian Jews as 'becoming white' is similar to that of some European immigrants like Poles and Italians who arrived in the United States in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries.
You'd be surprised to know most white supremacists are pro-Israel (including the original German Nazi party, guess which side most white supremacist political parties are?), mostly because they see it as a way to get Jewish people out of their country and keep the Middle-East destabilized.
I said Mizrahi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews
"You'd be surprised to know most white supremacists are pro-Israel (including the original German Nazi party"
At first. Then al-Husseini met the Nazis and they worked out an agreement.
But I honestly don't think you're actually interested in the history of the region, so I'll spare you and I the lecture. If you're accusing Israel of lying about October 7th, you won't be interested nor believe any mitigating facts.
Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with. It will eventually get your main account banned as well.
The videos of destruction and death in Gaza are far more horrific than corresponding videos in Israel, because the scale of what Israel is doing to Gaza is so much greater than what Gaza has done to Israel.
Another way of saying it is, it makes sense that someone who spends hours on apps optimized for empathy-based addiction would be more sympathetic to Gazans than someone who reads the newspaper or watches talking heads on TV news, since the latter portray the occupation as a two-sided tit for tat.