The reality is that 3000 innocent children are dead. The reality is that many more innocent adults are dead. The reality is that almost a third of Palestinian housing is unlivable. The reality is that 2,000,000 people are now in a humanitarian crisis, due to IDF attacks.

You can waffle about if it was or wasn't necessary, but the end result is that Israel is, if nothing else, facing a massive blow to public and western support as a result of their response - a response which seems more punitive than effective. This is incredibly dangerous for Israel, and what they've done may have hurt them in the long term more than help them. The American invasion of Iraq or Afghanistan has some parallels....

I don't have all the answers, I just call it like I see it.

I'm not sure what you've added to your original comment

I don't think there was much more to add, tbh.

I dunno, in the end the solution to a lot of people hurt certainly isn’t a lot more people hurt. Which seems to be what is happening now.

Realistically, Israel should have never withdrawn from Gaza, and we need to start making actual hard decisions to avoid the unthinkable ones. Unfortunately, too often we end up making the easy decision and hope unicorns and rainbows will prevail. Gaza would have been safer and better run under Israeli military occupation, just like Afghanistan was better off under American military occupation. Countries who sit on the sidelines and complain should put their money where their mouths are, and when one country is bearing the full cost of something like that, pony up to spread the costs out.

"Israel should forever exercise military control over millions of non-citizens who have no democratic control over anything, for their own good of course."

This is literally what you're saying...

And with rhetoric like this you wonder why people call Israel an apartheid state... You literally are proposing that here.

And what happened to "give me liberty or give me death", "you will not tread on me", "no taxation without representation", and all of that stuff so popular in the US? Guess that doesn't apply to the Arab...

Most of the world is run without democratic control. I mean, I hate the CCP, but given that there is no other government that is going to be able to keep any part of China running, is it so wrong to say that overthrowing the CCP by assassinating key leaders is a rash decision? Perfect should not be the enemy of good enough.

> And what happened to "give me liberty or give me death", "you will not tread on me", "no taxation without representation", and all of that stuff so popular in the US? Guess that doesn't apply to the Arab...

Americans culturally would not tolerate any of that. I think it would be good for Gazans to fight Israel for its independence on proper terms. Perhaps that would lead to a proper state instead of this barbarity. At what point did the continental army decide to kidnap children and rape women instead of engaging the British directly?

But like I said before, perfect should not be the enemy of good. I have traveled extensively. Americans have a very unique culture. Most people around the world value order, while Americans mainly value the ability to run their own affairs at the local level. The Gazans have shown no interest in American-style democracy. Fine.

This is not hypocrisy. The flags say 'Don't tread on me', not 'don't tread on them'.

I have never understood why people think democracy is the ultimate goal, it is not

individual liberty is the ultimate goal. One way we have been able to get that is via a limited democratic process (key word limited)

Democracy unrestrained is just Mob Rules and almost always ends in Dictatorship, or Authoritarian Theocracy

>>and all of that stuff so popular in the US?

Tell me you do not know anything about American history, or US politics with out telling me...

Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait? You've unfortunately been doing it repeatedly. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.

If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

Edit: it looks like you've been using HN primarily for ideological battle. We ban accounts that do that, regardless of which ideology they like or dislike—it's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. If you want to keep commenting on HN, we need you to stop doing this. More explanation here in case it's helpful: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...

> The reality is that 3000 innocent children are dead. The reality is that many more innocent adults are dead. The reality is that almost a third of Palestinian housing is unlivable. The reality is that 2,000,000 people are now in a humanitarian crisis, due to IDF attacks.

Do to Hamas attacks. If the IDF could avoid killing a single civilian they would, but we've seen how Hamas hides in schools, hospitals, and civilian housing.

What other country builds tunnels under hospitals and transports anti-tank missiles in a baby stroller? Google it!

I can think of a few ways they could have avoided, including a slower pace and more targeted strikes. But they didn't. And here's the thing: it kind of seems like the whole thing was a sick trap on the part of Hamas.

>What other country builds tunnels under hospitals and transports anti-tank missiles in a baby stroller? Google it!

It doesn't matter. More than twice the number of victims on 10/7 have died in Gaza, and they're all children. Four times if you include adults.

The best you can accuse Israel of with those kind of numbers is _incompetence_.

Like I said, a sick trap. And it looks like Israel fell for it. And now Israel, the dominant power in this conflict, gets to pay the price.

So who is worse, the person that hides behind the innocent or the person that shoots through the innocent to kill them?

Obviously the person that hides behind the innocent. Are you supposed to not shoot at someone who’s shooting at you? No competent army on earth would make that choice.

No, it's not obvious at all.