I'm not saying upfront pricing would survive in a free-for-all laissez-faire economy, I'm saying that it ought to be required because it is better for consumers.

They pick based on the advertised price because hidden fees and culturally-mandated tips exploit weaknesses in our psychology, not because customers actually like to spend more than they'd planned on.

In Ontario, Canada we did away with the lower tier minimum wage. Everyone, including servers, bartenders, etc, make at least $16.55/hr. Tips, if any, add on to that. It makes it so much easier to look at the price tag and know what something costs, and not to tip when it doesn’t feel like anything exceptional happened.

But my favourite thing: it gives weight back to tips. They mean something again.

Both can co-exist. Also, let's not forget that California lives in its own bubble, not reflective of the rest of Americana.

I don't know why you're bringing California into this. I don't live there, and TFA takes place in Austin, TX.

Shoud've clarified - I couldn't reply to the 3rd reply due to HN's limitations, but it was related to the "California" reply without making mention of it. This has nothing to do with Canada.

HN has posting limitations.

That's a weird take. What about life in California do you think is so different?

California doesn't have a tip wage, tips still expected.

Great - tips there should be optional, but that's now not part of the discussion. California's progressive laws rarely reflect the rest of the country, especially Texas.

progressive 1970's policies

An advertised price that is racing to the bottom by offloading more and more of the cost to tips from customers.

Meanwhile the employees blame the customers, the customers blame the corporation, and the corporation blames the employees.

The corporation is the only one that is laughing all the way to the bank.

I assume at least the top quintile of tipped personnel are also making out better than under a non tipped system.

This isn't about high-end bartending or wait staff in high-end restaurants. Most people in the service industry don't work there, and most places can't support that level of pay, so your point is moot in general application, but still accurate.

That's not what this conversation is about.

This seems more like an argument for mandating up-front pricing, than against up-front pricing. That way nobody can “defect” and gain business by obscuring prices.

Customers being oblivious to dark patterns in charging, is why regulation is needed.

> consumers show over and over they pick based on the advertised price. This is true in dining, flights, hotels etc.

This is precisely why junk fees must die.

Well the debate aside it seems like the culture is moving away from tipping. Younger generations don't seem to do it. So it seems that legislatures are going to have to start accounting for this in their min wage requirements