It’s not a topic I’m particularly passionate about, but to take the opposing view:

Millions of people enjoy visiting pubs every week and the overwhelming majority don’t have an alcohol problem.

It’s an important venue for social connections at a time when there are less and less of those. They haven’t been replaced with other venues for many people, particularly the elderley who already struggle with social isolation.

They are also a big part of our culture and heritage at a time when that is also under threat from many angles.

The industry covers tens of thousands of jobs and captures boat loads of taxes both directly and indirectly.

And the annoying thing is that they are still viable small businesses, but the big pubcos and the taxes have squeezed the industry until it’s unviable to operate.

I’m not a big pub person, but I think it’s a shame to lose one of the few remaining pastimes which haven’t been replaced with an app.

Its quite possible (and probably healthier) to have 'third places' that don't involve alcohol.

Did we get third spaces that replaced the pubs though? The lack of third spaces is a real issue and I find myself longing for them. I don't see myself hanging out in the pub to socialize with strangers, but more third spaces and people using them more are one of the things that I think could greatly help the mental health epidemic and our social discourse in general.

Yeah there are plenty of third spaces. I go and play board games at my local cafe and library. Go on walks. Play sports (tennis, cycling). Have a book club. Drink way too much coffee.

Outside of the coffee houses, I’m not sure any of those are a third space. A third spade is somewhere people can allow their real selves to show. It’s also commonly identified as a place where you can have revolutions grow, or have the dissenting come together.

If the primary purpose of a space is a singular activity that overwhelms discussion of other things, then it’s not a third space.

Sporting associations can be third spaces, but that isn’t the case if people take the sport seriously.

Then it's also possible to have those places exist before shutting down the pubs.

> Millions of people enjoy visiting pubs every week and the vast majority don’t have an alcohol problem.

Nah we all have an alcohol problem. It’s still worth it though because a beer objectively tastes better when it’s drank away from home.

No, that's not the reason pubs had to close. If that were the reason I would half-agree with you, but it wasn't. They were destroyed by the economy. Businesses being destroyed by the economy is nothing to celebrate.

I'm not sure if your post is making fun of the original author, but what parts of "the economy", other than customer demand, do you think destroyed these pubs?

Inflation that has made it unaffordable for clients to patronise pubs.

There's a difference between "I want to drink less" and "I can't afford to drink as much as I want"

Inflation means that many people also earn more money. In the US that seems to be mostly at the bottom end for now though.

They didn't close for economic reasons. They have been slowly dying along with their patrons and have been ramping costs to cover this for the last couple of decades. They then tried to reinvent themselves. It has now reached the point of saturation.

Also a lot of people have complete alcoholics in their family and history and it's not seen as a socially acceptable thing and is tied to negative sentiment as well.

Yup. This is because costs are too high and people literally can't afford to go patronize their local establishments.

Some people are indeed living better lives, freer of problems for not being around alcohol. Yes. But a lot of people are probably at home watching the tele instead, and many of them were fine &didn't have problems with alcohol in the old culture. And a good number of the people who would have had problems are pants drunk instead, and some who would have been fine happy people having a pub scene are probably doing much worse instead.

Weatherspoons encourages binge drinking, daytime alcoholism, etc. Those aren't the pubs that are closing.

I was in a pub near St Pauls earlier today, one built by Christopher Wren with some friends I hadn't seen for a long time ahead of a mattine performance. The four of us sat round the fire, one had a pint of draft peer, another half a pint, another a mulled wine, and another a coffee. Certainly not expensive -- less than the cost of a coffee from starbucks, certainly not a pit of misery, and I didn't get the impression anyone near us was miserable.

Meanwhile just down the road are chain stores selling heavily processed junk food causing far more damage, but I'm sure you consider them healthier because of your puritanical beliefs.

Spoons is a fine example of what the old pubs were though. The cheapest place you could get casually fucked up. The new pubs are closing because they are not profitable as they are dead 80% of the time and the rest of the time they have to make up for the staffing costs. It's a dying business. The only successful one is the pubs like spoons which are completely harmful to society.

Not a puritan. Just realistic. I don't care what you do. People care what they do and the end game is they started caring about themselves more.

I think Wetherspoons are unfairly maligned.

They give the market what they want in terms of cheap food and beer, and some of the venues are beautiful.

Most of them are fairly civilised during the week as they revolve around food and there are families present.

The city centre ones do get a bit rowdy on Friday and Saturday nights though.

Its not like there aren't still a metric ton of purveyors of liquid death and destruction. People would be better off in every way with the return of Opium dens, at least they don't destroy your physical and mental body as badly and irreoverably than/as alcohol

This is to say nothing of the violence and murdery shit that directly flows from alcohol consumption, statistically speaking

If you are looking for how alcohol, despite the author acknowledging that alcohol is physically not great for humans, has some positive benefits, I highly recommend checking out the below:

Drunk: How We Sipped, Danced, and Stumbled Our Way to Civilization Hardcover by Edward Slingerland

https://www.amazon.com/Drunk-Sipped-Danced-Stumbled-Civiliza...

I appreciate that but truth be told, I'm not interested in learning or experiencing any more from that product + soectrum of relevant lifestyles. Thanks tho, but I have learned many diffict lessons that Im equal parts grateful for and being away from going forward :)

What about sugars and fast food? Heart disease is a leading cause of death and diabetes in rising in most populations. We have sugary drinks and fast food to thank for it. Strange I don't see culture warriors going after these things. Feels more like a come back of good old Puritanism perhaps. No thanks.

Death liquids come in many carbohydrate-based offerings and forums. They all suck, we're talking about alcohol right now. We can't shut down everything at once or snap fingers and change people'seating habits willy-nilly, can we? Should we even try if we can't do it perfectly, immediately, and seamlessly?

I don't believe we should shut down any of these places. In moderation they are all fine. Advocating for abstinence is a proven failed strategy and requires fairly authoritarian methods to make work.

Educating people is the only moral approach, but these days anyones opinion is as valid as expert knowledge so that is out the window.

I'm not advocating for abstinence, I'm advocating for people relocating to whats open if they want to do pub stuff. I'm simply stating my conviction that the fewer places (nothing about 0 or overly-prohibitive), the generally better off society is as long as there is help finding a new income and stabillity and a reasonable offramp for those affected in terms of employment since its unthinkable to simply provide an income for people so we can all be ok on that front.

I did share my personal take on what I want and don't want going forward beacause of where I was with it in my life and where I'm going now that I am not weighed down and mutated by it any further.

There's zero coercion. If people want to try to grt off, I would say talk to your dr and request nalfamene so you can still drink what you like but in a context that starts to remove the psychological and physical hooks it digs into anyone who loses the plot with it. If you need the anxiety help, request baclofen as an adjuvant and work your way down at whatever pace if at all that works for you

Nalfamene or naltrexone or whatever opidoid antagonists are available thru NHS is a successfull and affirming approach that makesit simple and likely to be successfull with attenuating issues with addiction and use of alcohol. I get I'm n=1 but what's the harm in exploring your options?

If I loved someone and I was invested/wanted them to heal and organically redefine their relationship with alc, I would help them with this even if I had to take them to the Dr myself to ensure they walked out with what they need and there was no ambiguity about how they are to honor the regiment that is available for their healing.

If I don't care for someone, I remain silent and return my efforts to address my own imperfections and pain so everyone is better of if I meet them or not

Fast food is constantly derided.

I personally believe that lack of physical activity actually plays a larger role in what drives the resulting health issues.

Liquid death doesn’t contain alcohol.

Source: https://liquiddeath.com/

They can't copyright or whatever otherwise reserve and deter me for professing a metaphor. I stand by what I said, that would not be a popular lawsuit if I were mistaken and I would be answering fully to it. Cheeky tho =D

Edi: okay, give me a few months' headstart, got some other nails to hit so I don't continue to step on them as I approach. They will have to come to me tho, I don't do international lawsuits lol. The quality or expense or dilligence of their anti-accountabillity hit squad are of zero consequence to me and they will come to know accountabillity finally.

I assume by "expensive as hell", you're talking about it being expensive to patronize these places.

The "good" implies that you might think these places deserve to go out of business because they are expensive. You can bet your ass that they're expensive because all of their costs have skyrocketted, not because they are profiteering.

They go out of business because 80% of the time they are empty. Only Friday and Saturday nights are profitable. You are paying for the dead time.

I think there are quite nice pubs but Wetherspoon's pubs can definitely be missed.

>Everyone found better, healthier things to do and better places to hang out

For a lot of younger people, the alternative seems to be staying home and socializing less.

I don't think that's the case. I have three of them in my house. They all seem to drink a lot of coffee, read a lot of books and do a lot of sports together (all of them at the school).

> Everyone found better, healthier things to do and better places to hang out and did it.

This feels like a leap.