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Re:Sam Altman's ouster was precipitated by letter to board a... by gadders on Wednesday November 22, 2023 @06:50PM (#38386944)
Entire text below to save the 4chan bits:

part 1 There is a massive disagreement on AI safety and the definition of AGI. Microsoft invested heavily in OpenAI, but OpenAI's terms was that they could not use AGI to enrich themselves. According to OpenAI's constitution: AGI is explicitly carved out of all commercial and IP licensing agreements, including the ones with Microsoft. Sam Altman got dollar signs in his eyes when he realized that current AI, even the proto-AGI of the present, could be used to allow for incredible quarterly reports and massive enrichment for the company, which would bring even greater investment. Hence Dev Day. Hence the GPT Store and revenue sharing. This crossed a line with the OAI board of directors, as at least some of them still believed in the original ideal that AGI had to be used for the betterment of mankind, and that the investment from Microsoft was more of a "sell your soul to fight the Devil" sort of a deal. More pragmatically, it ran the risk of deploying deeply "unsafe" models. Now what can be called AGI is not clear cut. So if some major breakthrough is achieved (eg Sam saying he recently saw the veil of ignorance being pushed back), can this breakthrough be called AGI depends on who can get more votes in the board meeting. And if one side can get enough votes to declare it AGI, Microsoft and OpenAI could loose out billions in potential licence agreements. And if one side can get enough votes to declare it not AGI, then they can licence this AGI-like tech for higher profits.

Few weeks/months ago OpenAI engineers made a breakthrough and something resembling AGI was achieved (hence his joke comment, the leaks, vibe change etc). But Sam and Brockman hid the extent of this from the rest of the non-employee members of the board. Ilyas is not happy about this and feels it should be considered AGI and hence not licensed to anyone including Microsoft. Voting on AGI status comes to the board, they are enraged about being kept in the dark. They kick Sam out and force Brockman to step down. Ilyas recently claimed that current architecture is enough to reach AGI, while Sam has been saying new breakthroughs are needed. So in the context of our conjecture Sam would be on the side trying to monetize AGI and Ilyas will be the one to accept we have achieved AGI. Sam Altman wants to hold off on calling this AGI because the longer it's put off, the greater the revenue potential. Ilya wants this to be declared AGI as soon as possible, so that it can only be utilized for the company's original principles rather than profiteering. Ilya winds up winning this power struggle. In fact, it's done before Microsoft can intervene, as they've declared they had no idea that this was happening, and Microsoft certainly would have incentive to delay the declaration of AGI. Declaring AGI sooner means a combination of a lack of ability for it to be licensed out to anyone (so any profits that come from its deployment are almost intrinsically going to be more societally equitable and force researchers to focus on alignment and safety as a result) as well as regulation. Imagine the news story breaking on /r/WorldNews: "Artificial General Intelligence has been invented." And it spreads throughout the grapevine the world over, inciting extreme fear in people and causing world governments to hold emergency meetings to make sure it doesn't go Skynet on us, meetings that the Safety crowd are more than willing to have held.

part 3 This would not have been undertaken otherwise. Instead, we'd push forth with the current frontier models and agent sharing scheme without it being declared AGI, and OAI and Microsoft stand to profit greatly from it as a result, and for the Safety crowd, that means less regulated development of AGI, obscured by Californian principles being imbued into ChatGPT's and DALL-E's outputs so OAI can say "We do care about safety!" It likely wasn't Ilya's intention to ouster Sam, but when the revenue sharing idea was pushed and Sam argued that the tech OAI has isn't AGI or anything close, that's likely what got him to decide on this coup. The current intention by OpenAI might be to declare they have an AGI very soon, possibly within the next 6 to 8 months, maybe with the deployment of GPT-4.5 or an earlier-than-expected release of 5. Maybe even sooner than that. This would not be due to any sort of breakthrough; it's using tech they already have. It's just a disagreement-turned-conflagration over whether or not to call this AGI for profit's sake.

Re:Sam Altman's ouster was precipitated by letter to board a... by mullingitover on Wednesday November 22, 2023 @07:13PM (#38387247)
Makes me wonder if they stumbled onto some emergent behavior with the new Assistants API. You can have an Assistant thread spawn other Assistant threads, each with their own special instructions, plus the ability to execute custom code, reach out to the internet for other data and processing as needed, etc. Basically kicking off a hive mind that overcomes the limitations of a single LLM.
Re:Sam Altman's ouster was precipitated by letter to board a... by TeMPOraL on Wednesday November 22, 2023 @08:11PM (#38387844)
Except this was entirely possible with API, and the dead stupid obvious thing to do, even as far back as OG ChatGPT (pre-GPT-4). Assistants don't seem to introduce anything new here, at least not anything one could trivially make with API access, a Python script, and a credit card.

So I don't thing it's this - otherwise someone would've done this long time ago and killed us all.

Also not like all the "value adds" for ChatGPT are in any way original or innovative - "plugins" / "agents" were something you could use months ago via alternative frontend like TypingMind, if you were willing to write some basic JavaScript and/or implement your own server-side actions for the LLM to invoke. So it can't be this.

Re:Sam Altman's ouster was precipitated by letter to board a... by wrycoder on Wednesday November 22, 2023 @09:17PM (#38388396)
What seemed to work at Google was to have the AIs chat with each other.
Re:Sam Altman's ouster was precipitated by letter to board a... by Tostino on Wednesday November 22, 2023 @10:12PM (#38388771)
I'd agree that what is available publicly isn't anything that hasn't been in wide discussion for an agent framework since maybe ~march/april of this year, and many people had just hacked together their own version with an agent/RAG pipeline and API to hide their requests behind.

I'm very sure anything revolutionary would have been more of a leap than deeply integrating a agent/RAG pipeline into the OpenAI API. They have the compute...

Re:Sam Altman's ouster was precipitated by letter to board a... by rileyphone on Wednesday November 22, 2023 @07:18PM (#38387327)
Given the name (Q*) it's probably pure RL.
Re:Sam Altman's ouster was precipitated by letter to board a... by cpeterso on Wednesday November 22, 2023 @10:46PM (#38389012)
What’s RL?
Re:Sam Altman's ouster was precipitated by letter to board a... by ShamelessC on Wednesday November 22, 2023 @11:05PM (#38389133)
Reinforcement learning.
Re:Sam Altman's ouster was precipitated by letter to board a... by shishy on Wednesday November 22, 2023 @11:07PM (#38389147)
reinforcement learning
Re:Sam Altman's ouster was precipitated by letter to board a... by fullstackchris on Wednesday November 22, 2023 @07:25PM (#38387407)
okay, i could be convinced... but what is the compute for this? you can't just "spawn threads" with reckless abandon without considering the resource requirements
Re:Sam Altman's ouster was precipitated by letter to board a... by mullingitover on Wednesday November 22, 2023 @07:31PM (#38387471)
As long as your checks clear and the HVAC in the data center holds up I think you're good to go.

The beauty of the Assistants is you're not limited to OpenAI models. You can wire them up to any model anywhere (out they can wire themselves up), so you can have specialist threads going for specific functions.

Re:Sam Altman's ouster was precipitated by letter to board a... by omneity on Wednesday November 22, 2023 @09:18PM (#38388398)
This does work to a certain extent, but doesn't really converge for significantly more complex tasks. (Source: tried to make all sorts of agents work on complex problems in a divide and conquer fashion)

They eventually ... lose the thread.

Re:Sam Altman's ouster was precipitated by letter to board a... by mullingitover on Thursday November 23, 2023 @12:07AM (#38389521)
Did you make a framework for the agents so they could delegate problems to an appropriate model, query a dataset, etc, or was it just turtles all the way down on GPT4?

My hunch is that one big LLM isn't the answer, and we need specialization much like the brain has specialized regions for vision, language, spatial awareness, and so on.

Re:Sam Altman's ouster was precipitated by letter to board a... by omneity on Thursday November 23, 2023 @12:04PM (#38394883)
To take the analogy of a company, the problem here is that management is really bad.

What you described is rather akin to hiring better workers, but we need better managers. Whether it’s a single or multiple models is more of an implementation detail, as long as there’s at least one model capable of satisfactory goal planning _and_ following.

Re:Sam Altman's ouster was precipitated by letter to board a... by omneity on Friday November 24, 2023 @03:36PM (#38407967)
Look at that! This might be the missing piece.

https://ai.meta.com/research/cicero/

Re:Sam Altman's ouster was precipitated by letter to board a... by mrandish on Wednesday November 22, 2023 @07:27PM (#38387430)
It's plausible that the three EA outside board members may have been concerned by reports of a breakthrough or maybe even alarmed by a demo. The part which doesn't seem plausible is about "declaring AGI" being so ill-defined. While we don't know the content of agreement behind MSFT's $13B investment, there's no way that the army of lawyers who drafted the contract left the most important term undefined or within to OpenAI's sole judgement.

That's just not the way such huge $$$ mega-corp contracts work.

Re:Sam Altman's ouster was precipitated by letter to board a... by swatcoder on Wednesday November 22, 2023 @07:48PM (#38387627)
It's constrained by the terms in their charter, which a sane outsider might see as fantastical and no threat at all when making a deal.

It's easy to take advantage of people who have blinded themselves, as some of the board members at OpenAI have.

Re:Sam Altman's ouster was precipitated by letter to board a... by charlie0 on Wednesday November 22, 2023 @10:23PM (#38388853)
What's not clear here is who's call is it to declare AGI? I would think that would be Ilya. In that case, this narrative doesn't make sense.
Re:Sam Altman's ouster was precipitated by letter to board a... by Xelynega on Wednesday November 22, 2023 @10:30PM (#38388895)
My guess is(like the 4chan post said) it would be a board vote.
Re:Sam Altman's ouster was precipitated by letter to board a... by JoshTko on Wednesday November 22, 2023 @10:26PM (#38388870)
This is the first explanation that is consistent with all participant motivations
Re:Sam Altman's ouster was precipitated by letter to board a... by cpeterso on Wednesday November 22, 2023 @10:44PM (#38388999)
Including why the board continued to be reluctant to reveal their reasons for firing Altman, if they are still evaluating the possible AGI claims.
Re:Sam Altman's ouster was precipitated by letter to board a... by TMWNN on Thursday November 23, 2023 @03:51AM (#38390794)
I would reword it another way. If the 4chan report, and these reports of "Q*" are true, the board would be reluctant to reveal its reasons for firing Altman because it doesn't want the world to know about the existence of what may well be AGI. The board members view this as more important than their own reputations.