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Re:Children, left behind by suburbia, need better community ... by ryan93 on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @04:45PM (#38370719)
Why on earth is the picture of a busy truck stop type place? Most suburban neighborhoods have low traffic and plenty of places to ride your bike. Often have pools and basketball courts or fields to play in.
Re:Children, left behind by suburbia, need better community ... by david-gpu on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @04:54PM (#38370854)
> Most suburban neighborhoods have low traffic and plenty of places to ride your bike

Until you actually try to go anywhere and find that you cant't without riding through an arterial road with heavy dangerous traffic. The quiet suburban roads don't form a network that allows you to go to actual destinations.

Here in Toronto they are trying to address that by building (a few) cycle tracks running parallel to these horrible arterial roads, but it's still an awful experience. There are a few quiet greenways without any motor traffic, but they don't help you reach any destination.

Neighborhoods that were built before the advent of the car are more amenable to cycling.

Re:Children, left behind by suburbia, need better community ... by bluGill on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @04:58PM (#38370910)
While you can't get very far, you can still get to a park on those streets, which is what OP was talking about. There are generally enough kids in the neighborhood that you can find someone to play with of about your age.

Of course the kids need to go outside to meet those other kids (and the other kids need to go out as well), and parents need to let kids out of their sight to go to the park.

Re:Children, left behind by suburbia, need better community ... by david-gpu on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @05:20PM (#38371234)
My kids can't even go to their (suburban) school by bike because they can't get there without riding on a road for part of the way. That's a direct consequence of car-centric urban planning.

These low-density car-dependent suburbs provide a very poor experience for everybody outside a car, from children/teens who can't drive yet to people who are trying to get to a destination (work, shop, library, restaurant, etc.) without a car.

Re:Children, left behind by suburbia, need better community ... by anon291 on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @07:41PM (#38372898)
> There are generally enough kids in the neighborhood that you can find someone to play with of about your age.

Is there? This is actually a problem. In many neighborhoods, especially in the nicest areas where people are richer, there are fewer and fewer kids. Today, there are significantly fewer kids than adults. Just a few decades ago, kids outnumbered adults in many neighborhoods.

I mean this really matters. If you have a community of 40 families and twenty kids, there's hardly any kids that can actually play with each other. They're probably too different in age, to have groups of more than 2 or 3, and that's a stretch because if you only have two or three there's a significant chance you may not get along / might not be super-interested.

Re:Children, left behind by suburbia, need better community ... by joenot443 on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @10:19PM (#38374327)
There are loads of communities outside the GTA which are largely post-war and are still exceptionally bikable. Collingwood, Guelph, Orangeville, Owen Sound, Brantford - even Hamilton comes to mind. I don’t think Ontario is a great example of your heuristic here, if anything it demonstrates the opposite. Those cities are only bikable _because_ of the wide, smooth roads necessitated by cars.
Re:Children, left behind by suburbia, need better community ... by ShadowBanThis01 on Wednesday November 22, 2023 @03:04AM (#38376349)
"The quiet suburban roads don't form a network that allows you to go to actual destinations"

Why not? Mine sure did.

Sounds like Toronto suffers from L.A.'s problem: It's an asinine mess where you're going town a street and then... it dead-ends into a house. It's irritating as shit. None of the streets go anywhere.

Re:Children, left behind by suburbia, need better community ... by ShadowBanThis01 on Wednesday November 22, 2023 @06:07PM (#38386494)
Some L.A. apologists were offended by facts. Shocker. They'd rather kill the messenger than stand up for a better reality.
Re:Children, left behind by suburbia, need better community ... by paradox460 on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @08:16PM (#38373267)
At this point that picture is standard operating procedure for the people who endlessly pontificate on the "evils" of suburbs. They always post it, or use it in their YouTube videos, or whatever else. At this point if you see it, you almost always know the content of the argument that will follow, and can just ignore it
Re:Children, left behind by suburbia, need better community ... by BetaDeltaAlpha on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @04:49PM (#38370776)
It's not just a truck stop. Breezwood, PA is a meme at this point used to malign suburbs.
Re:Children, left behind by suburbia, need better community ... by neogodless on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @04:55PM (#38370862)
Yup - instantly recognized. (I've also been there.)

Can get some idea of it if you go to Street View and "zoom in" with the mouse wheel.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9993331,-78.2406551,3a,15y,9...

Re:Children, left behind by suburbia, need better community ... by brailsafe on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @06:52PM (#38372384)
Instantly recognized is an interesting characterization for a place that has no distinct visual characteristics at all (which I think was your point). Although I tend to agree with most urbanist arguments, many people limit their animosity to critiques of the physical land use patterns, but stop short of being so critical towards the emptying of unique cultural capital a place might otherwise have if it weren't filled with only the blandest low-risk franchise investments like Starbucks, Dairy Queen, etc...

In Canada, most towns look 95% alike to this the one you linked, with the exception of a few franchises that don't cross the border. That means I can drop a street view pin in any "neighborhood" that was built in the last decade (often including many mixed-use or more contemporary building types), and more than likely find one giant super grocery, an Orange theory fitness, a Freshii, a Subway, a gas station, a bank, a Tim Hortons, a Starbucks, and at least one mega fucking big parking lot.

I rent a car when I want one for road trips, but after driving through innumerable small towns and cities, it's a sad feeling to visit and just know that... there's literally no good local offerings here, not anymore.

Re:Children, left behind by suburbia, need better community ... by mcpackieh on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @09:01PM (#38373666)
It's an absurd meme perpetuated by the ignorant. I've been through Breezewood countless times, I grew up less than a hour away. If you drive just a minute or two away from Breezewood you'll be in the beautiful rolling hills of Pennsylvnaia. Gorgeous countryside, a great place to raise kids.

This is 3 minutes outside of Breezewood. This is what urban propagandist dudebros would have you believe is suburban hell: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0062641,-78.230818,3a,75y,35...

Breezewood isn't even a suburb, less than two hundred people actually live there. It's essentially a rest stop, a bizarro artifact of some esoteric interaction between I-70 and the turnpike. Any other small town in the area is completely different.

Re:Children, left behind by suburbia, need better community ... by ComposedPattern on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @11:39PM (#38374784)
Uhh... ok. If you drive a few minutes past the horrifying automotive blight you arrive at... a shoulderless road going through an empty field. It's not a suburb, but it demonstrates the problem with car-centric development and sprawl. I grew up in a similar area a couple hours away, and it was a terrible place to be a kid. Yeah, I had some fun exploring the woods by my house until I got old enough to be bored by it, but that cost was that I never got to see other kids or go anywhere without having to bother my parents to arrange something and drive me somewhere. I always figured that suburban kids got to play with other kids all the time, but the impression I get is that this doesn't really happen. Suburbs are still car islands, and a kid has to be pretty lucky to have other kids their age they get along with in their general vicinity.
Re:Children, left behind by suburbia, need better community ... by mcpackieh on Wednesday November 22, 2023 @11:13AM (#38381145)
That "horrifying automotive blight" is less than one square kilometer and virtually nobody lives there. If you don't like it (few people do) then don't live there. The rest of Bedford Country has thousands of other square kilometers for you to live in, with numerous small towns that aren't interstate rest stops. Go streetview in Bedford PA, where about 3000 people live vs Breezewood's <200. It's a modest community, the people there aren't rich but they have nice yards, sidewalks all over the place, and few cars on any of the roads. Teach your kids to look both ways before crossing a street and they'll be fine. Only somebody who's hopelessly neurotic would worry about their kids walking to their friend's house in Bedford.

> kids don't like growing up in the country

Most do, but if you think yours won't then go live in a small town or a city. Citing Breezewood as a problem with American society is simply idiotic. It's a tiny aberration that doesn't effect you or anybody else except for the handful of weirdos who choose to live there.

Re:Children, left behind by suburbia, need better community ... by gosub100 on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @04:54PM (#38370856)
How funny, because when you look at it from the map, there's proably < 100 housing units within a ~3 mile radius. Of course there's not a bike path and roundabouts! It's the ideal place for a stroad: a pit-stop off the interstate with almost no housing nearby, with a cold the climate half the year.
Re:Children, left behind by suburbia, need better community ... by Symbiote on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @05:29PM (#38371349)
That place is awful.

If a truck driver stops for the night, but fancies a meal from the other side of the road there's no sidewalk, and no crossing. Just lots of "no pedestrians" signs.

How do you get from the Tesla Supercharger to McDonald's?

Re:Children, left behind by suburbia, need better community ... by mcpackieh on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @09:12PM (#38373748)
Nobody intended Breezewood to be the way it is, it's the result of a bureaucratic jam between the state and the federal government decades ago. It hasn't been fixed since then because it's profitable the way it is. Virtually nobody actually lives there so there's no local pressure to change it. It is in no way representative of other communities in the region.
Re:Children, left behind by suburbia, need better community ... by tropdrop on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @04:49PM (#38370778)
I read the image as a visualization of why it feels hostile, to a suburban child, to walk to a point of gathering or "third place." For many suburban children, this kind of intersection is fairly representative of the closest points of interest to their home, accessible only by car via highways.
Re:Children, left behind by suburbia, need better community ... by loandbehold on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @04:53PM (#38370848)
You are wrong. It's absolutely not representative. Closet point of interest would be a suburban park/playground.
Re:Children, left behind by suburbia, need better community ... by tropdrop on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @05:21PM (#38371253)
Maybe to a very young child that is an interesting spot, but this kind of intersection certainly was representative of the closest points of interest in the suburb where I spent my middle-school years.

In my experience, older children tended to want to congregate at cafes, Einstein Bagels, etc., especially if coming home after school when the parents aren't home and all one wants is a spot for a hanging out with friends over a snack. Also, a park being a gathering place assumes ample tree cover and good weather, missing during most of the the academic year. Meanwhile, at least in the American southwest, a park is unbearably (near 100F) hot in the summer.

Re:Children, left behind by suburbia, need better community ... by Brybry on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @06:49PM (#38372357)
I feel like the weather bit is something people forget about.

I live in the southern US and I don't want to go outside most of the year either, because it's miserable.

And I don't have hard data on hand to back it up but it certainly seems to me and my dad that it's hotter, and more often, than it was when we were kids.

Re:Children, left behind by suburbia, need better community ... by loandbehold on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @04:52PM (#38370822)
This.Most suburban communities build in the last 50 years are pretty nice. Almost no traffic, sidewalks everywhere, safe to ride a bike or walk your dog. If you have businesses in the community it brings traffic and noise. Much nicer to separate residential and commercial.
Re:Children, left behind by suburbia, need better community ... by acdha on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @05:20PM (#38371230)
Sidewalks vary wildly, often with some nasty history. I grew up in Southern California and and was used to sidewalks pretty much everywhere, rode my bike to school a couple miles away in bike lanes, etc. I thought pretty much the same as you.

Then I moved to the east coast and, wow, there are visible fault lines from white racists losing Brown v. Board & other civil rights cases in the form of these suburbs built between 1950 and maybe 2000 which have no sidewalks, windy layouts designed to discourage visitors and prevent transit, no public pools but private ones, etc. One of my coworkers lives off of a very busy road which has a sidewalk from their neighborhood which ends abruptly a ¼ mile away in front of the house with the Confederate flag whose owner has gone to every meeting for like 40 years arguing that completing the connection to the park & bus stop will lead to a crime spree. Most of these places had racial covenants in the deeds which are no longer enforceable but definitely set a trend for the formative decades.

(This is not to say that California doesn’t have exclusionary suburbs – I used to ride my bike through some of the ones around San Diego where a Caribbean friend only rode when there was a group to vouch for him after he got tired of explaining to the local police why a black dude was on a nice bike – but they tend to be smaller and less inclined to forgo basic civic infrastructure. Even with that experience I was surprised by how widespread it was in a lot of cities we’ve visited from Florida up to Massachusetts)

Re:Children, left behind by suburbia, need better community ... by matsemann on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @04:58PM (#38370915)
So it's safe to walk and ride your bike, but you have nothing close by worth biking or walking to? Sounds counter productive. What do you do, bike in circles?

Or my guess: you have to drive everywhere. Hence no autonomy for the kids.

Re:Children, left behind by suburbia, need better community ... by weberer on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @05:20PM (#38371242)
What suburbs are you talking about? Whenever I see the topic discussed here, people always seem to be referring to some strawman neighborhood surrounded by desert and highway. And maybe that's true out west where land is sparse, but all the suburbs I've known have been places like Abington, PA. Look at it from street view. There's plenty of sidewalks, detached houses, shops and restaurants, big chain stores, small mom and pop stores, and train stations that take you downtown. You can start from anywhere on that map and make it to a supermarket within 20 minutes of walking.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Abington,+PA

Re:Children, left behind by suburbia, need better community ... by duderific on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @05:53PM (#38371684)
You complain about people cherry-picking an unfriendly suburb, and then cherry-pick a friendly one. There are both types, and it's basically pure luck (as a kid) if you happen to live in a friendly one.
Re:Children, left behind by suburbia, need better community ... by weberer on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @06:19PM (#38372000)
I didn't cherry pick anything. I'm just saying that no suburb I've ever seen fits the strawman description. And I've looked at plenty of them up and down the Northeast corridor.
Re:Children, left behind by suburbia, need better community ... by graywh on Wednesday November 22, 2023 @10:56AM (#38380915)
"suburbia" generally refers to areas that were built out in the last 70 years, not towns that are 300+ years old
Re:Children, left behind by suburbia, need better community ... by loandbehold on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @05:01PM (#38370954)
That's exactly what I like to do. Cycle around the neighborhood, look at people'e beautiful front yards. But kids can also bike or walk to school or visit their friends in walking/cycling distance.
Re:Children, left behind by suburbia, need better community ... by matsemann on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @05:17PM (#38371180)

  "" You can bike around any time you like  
  But you can never leave ""
  - The Eagles, almost
Re:Children, left behind by suburbia, need better community ... by leoedin on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @05:04PM (#38371003)
> If you have businesses in the community it brings traffic and noise

Surely if there's a coffee shop within walking distance, it would reduce traffic as people don't have to drive to get coffee?

Re:Children, left behind by suburbia, need better community ... by loandbehold on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @05:23PM (#38371277)
Who goes to a coffee shop from home just to get a cup of coffee? Most people can make coffee at home. Coffee shops are more for meetings people or to get coffee on the way to/from work.
Re:Children, left behind by suburbia, need better community ... by anon291 on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @07:43PM (#38372926)
> If you have businesses in the community it brings traffic and noise. Much nicer to separate residential and commercial.

Completely false. If you have a bunch of small cafes, small scale grocery stores, etc, it brings no traffic. It reduces traffic because now people walk instead of driving to those places. I used to live in a suburb that somehow managed to grandfather in a small convenience store. It was great. I went to the grocery store less because when I ran out of bell peppers I just walked to the store. We drove way less.

Now I live in the inner city a few blocks from a thriving commercial district and there's hardly any cars. I have no idea why people actually believe this. Our neighborhood is pitch silent at night.

Re:Children, left behind by suburbia, need better community ... by Abekkus on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @04:56PM (#38370877)
Breezewood, PA is basically a flag for american new urbanists to wave at each other, a rallying cry of what not to repeat.

Funny, too, because I'd only driven through the place twice but it was still enough of a core memory for me to recognize it right away the first time I'd seen it used in this kind of article.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breezewood,_Pennsylvania

Re:Children, left behind by suburbia, need better community ... by lifeisstillgood on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @04:50PM (#38370791)
In mice !