News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Bootstrapping Self Awareness in GPT-4: Towards Recursive ... by raidicy on Sunday November 19, 2023 @05:38PM (#38339205)
I've had a similar idea where each one of these iterations is what I called a "frame". What I'm euphemistically calling a frame of consciousness or a single blink or frame of consciousness.

My hypothesis is that either Consciousness is a series of frames or we can emulate Consciousness as a series of frames and that you can run this type of recursive self iteration input to an llm with a buffer. The reason for the buffer is that the context window is limited so you would drop out earlier stuff and hope that all the important things would be kept in the subsequent frames.

A further experiment was going to add a set of tags that represented <input> and <vision> where input was the user input interpolated through a python template and vision was an image that was described by text and fed into it. So that the llm at each frame would have some kind of input.

I lost a little bit of interest in this but this has maybe resparked it a little bit?

Re:Bootstrapping Self Awareness in GPT-4: Towards Recursive ... by datameta on Sunday November 19, 2023 @05:47PM (#38339319)
I think part of the concept of identity is the continuity of experience. When sentience arises in AGI, will each chat instance be a clone? After the conclusion of each chat will that experience be folded back in or spliced in some way to contribute to a continuity? Can there be true existence with just a series of temporary frames drawing upon a single state that only updates every few months?
Re:Bootstrapping Self Awareness in GPT-4: Towards Recursive ... by raidicy on Sunday November 19, 2023 @05:55PM (#38339402)
I think that's an interesting possibility. However I am biased by Buddhist philosophy in that I think that the continuance of experience is just an illusion that our brain is stitching so to speak together.

In other words I think it's completely possible to experience a single frame of consciousness alone from any other. Like if in the infinite multitude of possibilities somehow all the atoms in a rock a line in such a way that The Rock experiences one blip of consciousness. Or maybe I'm just romantic

Re:Bootstrapping Self Awareness in GPT-4: Towards Recursive ... by datameta on Sunday November 19, 2023 @06:10PM (#38339572)
I suppose I might be conflating some thoughts on identity with consciousness. Say, if a person goes through a teleporter, are they still themselves afterwards? If an AGI is copied, is the copy them? They can no longer be only an individual, but each an instance right? Or perhaps this is a biased anthropomorphic view from the kind of sentience that either has continuity or not
Re:Bootstrapping Self Awareness in GPT-4: Towards Recursive ... by raidicy on Sunday November 19, 2023 @06:17PM (#38339655)
No idea I think they're all really good questions.

I like your example that they become an instance. For the sake of argument say you have Holy Grail AGI™ and you copy it and starting from State t where T is the exact moment you copy it, two instances now exist.

I think they are both "them" but the state change through time as a chaotic process and so since they are now separated they will eventually begin to drift?

This is based totally on nothing but "dude trust me I made it up"

Re:Bootstrapping Self Awareness in GPT-4: Towards Recursive ... by datameta on Sunday November 19, 2023 @06:23PM (#38339712)
I think that makes complete sense and points me to the fact that it it simply that most of us aren't yet fully equipped to effectively use the vocabulary to describe these concepts, but you have put it well, I believe.
Re:Bootstrapping Self Awareness in GPT-4: Towards Recursive ... by raidicy on Sunday November 19, 2023 @06:36PM (#38339838)
Please take credit where credit is due; you used the word instance :-).

I figure what we're doing in these threads is kind of what sci-fi authors who were way smarter than myself have done for decades: Muse about a topic, put down some ideas maybe some new vocabulary Etc. Then when new technology comes out those of us who are well read can look back and say "A ha! That clever bastard knew it all along!"

Re:Bootstrapping Self Awareness in GPT-4: Towards Recursive ... by bobbiechen on Sunday November 19, 2023 @07:03PM (#38340109)
Both of you might enjoy Greg Egan's Permutation City - sci-fi involving simulated human consciousnesses that explores some related ideas.
Re:Bootstrapping Self Awareness in GPT-4: Towards Recursive ... by datameta on Monday November 20, 2023 @10:45AM (#38349620)
It's now been recommended too many times to me for me to not read it! I hear one needs their big kid math hat for this 9 on the Mohs hardness scale of hard sci-fi.
Re:Bootstrapping Self Awareness in GPT-4: Towards Recursive ... by jackothy on Sunday November 19, 2023 @06:52PM (#38339998)
Re:Bootstrapping Self Awareness in GPT-4: Towards Recursive ... by bcherny on Sunday November 19, 2023 @05:54PM (#38339397)
If you want some relevant sci-fi, Watts’ Freeze Frame Revolution explored this, on a scale of decades (not months).
Re:Bootstrapping Self Awareness in GPT-4: Towards Recursive ... by datameta on Sunday November 19, 2023 @06:00PM (#38339469)
I think I'm going to check this out, ty!
Re:Bootstrapping Self Awareness in GPT-4: Towards Recursive ... by raidicy on Sunday November 19, 2023 @05:59PM (#38339461)
Thank you! I love science fiction
Re:Bootstrapping Self Awareness in GPT-4: Towards Recursive ... by robwwilliams on Sunday November 19, 2023 @05:48PM (#38339330)
You can even measure the temporal widths of what you call frames now by fMRI and other methods—about 300 millisecond slabs of real time but much blurrier in the CNS’s temporal integration/processing timebases.
Re:Bootstrapping Self Awareness in GPT-4: Towards Recursive ... by raidicy on Sunday November 19, 2023 @05:56PM (#38339422)
Interesting so do you mean that like we can measure 300 MS slices of brain activity? In my code and experiments I was using hertz to measure frequency per second. I wanted to see the output much slower than real time.
Re:Bootstrapping Self Awareness in GPT-4: Towards Recursive ... by robwwilliams on Sunday November 19, 2023 @06:42PM (#38339906)
Check out work by Stanislas Dehaene (Consciousness and the Brain, chapters 4 and 5). And Ernst Pöppel’s Mindworks—Time and Conscious Experience.

One odd feature of all work in neuroscience is the unwarranted assumption that the brain has a timebase in the same way that a digital computer has an oscillator clock. That is obviously not true. The hundreds/thosands of brain subsystems have to learn and make their own quirky/noisy timebases and they have to mesh functionally to each other snd to world time via adaptive well-timed behavior. Arguable job number one if consciousness is creating an internal representation of nowness. Even trickier than managing distributed computing across a continent of infrastructure and latencies.

Re:Bootstrapping Self Awareness in GPT-4: Towards Recursive ... by daveguy on Sunday November 19, 2023 @09:30PM (#38341464)
There is very obviously an oscillator in the human brain. In fact, multiple of them.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_oscillation

Re:Bootstrapping Self Awareness in GPT-4: Towards Recursive ... by robwwilliams on Monday November 20, 2023 @08:27AM (#38347664)
There are certainly oscillation but they are not a timebase for CNS compute—two orders of magnitude too slow. Despite Buzsaki best tries to explain in part with gamma oscillations. Some auditory binaural computes are at the microsecond level—-the owl catching the mouse mid-flight at night. Or you speaking or thinking rapid fire. That it in the millisecond domain.
Re:Bootstrapping Self Awareness in GPT-4: Towards Recursive ... by daveguy on Monday November 20, 2023 @01:24PM (#38352065)
Just because they aren't any faster than 80 hz doesn't mean they don't provide timing for compute. Like the GPS pulse per second doesn't provide the clock frequency, but it does provide the synchronization. Of course it's not digital precision, but how could it not contribute as an integral part of brain function?
Re:Bootstrapping Self Awareness in GPT-4: Towards Recursive ... by robwwilliams on Monday November 20, 2023 @07:30PM (#38357090)
Contribute, yes sure, but not as a timebase for compute and generating motor output. Upper motor neurons need amazingly tight coactivation to achieve fine temporal control of spinal motor neurons when throwing a fast ball—-well under a millisecond (William Calvin, The Throwing Madonna). I do not see any EEG patterns as causal in this context. Nor between retina and visual cortex.

Arguing in your favor, rhythms may be important in getting closer to an adaptive coordination of activation and inhibition. Retinal waves during development are thought to contribute (controversially) to retinotopic maps. The big question again is How does the CNS-body achieve adaptive temporal integration and functional harmony? No one knows.

Re:Bootstrapping Self Awareness in GPT-4: Towards Recursive ... by hurryer on Sunday November 19, 2023 @06:07PM (#38339541)
Some say the neural waves (alpha, ...) are the frame rate.
Re:Bootstrapping Self Awareness in GPT-4: Towards Recursive ... by kylebenzle on Sunday November 19, 2023 @06:02PM (#38339495)
There was nothing in this article that gets us closer to AGI that I can see, what is happening is what in data science we call "self-training" or "bootstrapping". Its nothing new and only kind of works.

We've had at least three posts this week on "AGI" or "self-aware" AI. The only thing that changed in the last year is that our spell checkers have gotten a lot better and everyone seems to think that means we've taken a huge step toward actual AI, we haven't. I was as excited as the next guy but it turns out after a lot of testing and learning our newest "AI" is no closer in consciousness as our last go. Its weird and sad to see so many people thinking a spell checker is going to come alive.

Re:Bootstrapping Self Awareness in GPT-4: Towards Recursive ... by raidicy on Sunday November 19, 2023 @06:11PM (#38339582)
I can't speak for anyone else however, I don't think that this is going to become self-aware or alive. I don't have the mental ability to really reason about what any of that means.

My interest was in using this in a similar Vein on how someone might use Dwarf Fortress or rimworld to simulate social interactions. But in this case it would be a single entity.

I would be lying if I said I didn't think that llms are touching some sort of intelligence. And that self-reflective loops might be some sort of piece in the puzzle.

Ultimately I think any like groundbreaking emergent stuff coming out of these is going to be biased by our own language in it if there was kind of any magic emergence to be had. Making it impossible to actually test whether it's the real thing or not.

This was probably just a long winded way to say I'm a weird and sad person

Re:Bootstrapping Self Awareness in GPT-4: Towards Recursive ... by Aerbil313 on Sunday November 19, 2023 @10:54PM (#38342070)
Many people including myself don’t expect or even care about a spell checker coming alive and attaining consciousness. Create an LLM that is as good as average SE in solving problems and I’ll happily call it AGI, because the outcome is the same.
Re:Bootstrapping Self Awareness in GPT-4: Towards Recursive ... by shreyshnaccount on Monday November 20, 2023 @03:03AM (#38344288)
Sounds like bundle theory to me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundle_theory