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Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by kelnos on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @02:52PM (#38268650)
> Yet this country continues to throw their hands up in the air and do nothing.

It's not that. It's that most people in the US like car-centric culture, and like suburbs. They don't want to live in dense spaces and have to rely on transit.

I disagree with these people, but politicians are not going to be able to enact the things you've described without getting kicked out of office by the people who don't actually want them to do these things.

Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by hightrix on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @03:24PM (#38269195)
I love living in the suburbs and have zero desire to live in the city. Being accessible by car, I can get to anything I need in 15 minutes. The people promoting 15 minute cities completely miss the mark here. I, and many others, already live in "15 minute cities" since we can get to anything in 15 minutes by car.

For me, it is great to be able to drive to Home Depot, then Target, then stop and get lunch, and finally return home with a load of goods that would have been impossible for me to carry alone.

As you mentioned, I will strongly vote against, and even campaign against, any politicians threatening my way of life.

Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by Aaronstotle on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @03:28PM (#38269258)
Have you ever lived somewhere where you can walk to get lunch for example?

I really detest having to get into my car and drive 15 minutes each way (30 minutes round trip) to do any errand.

Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by stickfigure on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @03:39PM (#38269409)
Not the parent, but I lived 17 years in the heart of SF before moving to the country. I loved it in my 30s, but was pretty over it by my 40s. Now I love cooking at home, letting my kid play outside, and throwing parties without worrying about neighbors.

People like different things. The things people like change. Give the parent (and people like him/her) the benefit of the doubt.

Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by RHSeeger on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @03:44PM (#38269459)
And different people like different things. I live in the suburbs and there's somewhere on the order of 20+ restaurants I can get to within 15 minutes (and probably about 10 within 7-8 minutes. And I can also, like the poster you were responding to, go to several different stores, pick up a carload of stuff, and get back home.

If I want to do city things, I jump on the train (or drive) into a city and do city things for the day/night. But I don't want to live there.

Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by alamortsubite on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @06:15PM (#38271178)
"Restaurants."
Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by hightrix on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @04:33PM (#38270100)
Yes. I used to live in an apartment in the middle of city. It was easy to walk to lunch/dinner/drinks. It was great for those activities but absolutely awful for many others. Grocery shopping? Still need a car. Going to another part of the city where my friends are? Still need a car. Etc.

I enjoyed city living for a short period of time but it got old, very fast. It is NEVER quiet. Your selection of restaurants and bars is actually quite limited, or you’d need to taxi/Uber. And overall I felt my quality of life much lower.

Now I have a yard and a garage, extra storage in my house, and don’t have to deal with renting.

Life is MUCH better, for me, in the suburbs.

Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by kelnos on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @06:39PM (#38271376)
> Grocery shopping? Still need a car. Going to another part of the city where my friends are? Still need a car. Etc.

I think that we also need to understand the whys of some of this.

Grocery shopping or going to another part of the city to see friends should not require a car. If it does, that means the city's transit infra isn't sufficient for residents' needs. And the reason that's the case is because car culture is prioritized above all else in the US.

For larger grocery 'trips' I usually do delivery these days. But we also have a small grocer a couple blocks away (very well stocked, huge variety of stuff, great produce, etc.) that easily meets daily/weekly needs.

I do have a car, but I drive it only a few times a month. I fill up the gas tank once every couple months. I probably shouldn't own a car, but I can't kick the habit. It's great for long trips outside the city when we're doing some light traveling, at least. But overall I really dislike driving at this point in my life (absolutely loved it back in my 20s); I'd much rather take a train or bus, or walk.

The lack of quiet is an absolutely valid point. I personally just got used to it. I grew up in the suburbs and didn't move to a city until I 29 years old. That was almost 15 years ago, and I still love living in a city. But everyone's tastes differ here, certainly.

> Your selection of restaurants and bars is actually quite limited

I guess you picked the wrong neighborhood, if that's what you were looking for? Within a 10-minute walk I can choose among 15 or so restaurants, and seven bars. If I widen that to 20 minutes, I can add another 10 restaurants and three or four bars. And I don't live in a particularly dense or "party scene" neighborhood. At this point my partner and I pretty rarely leave the neighborhood for food or drink. And when we do, it's usually to meet up with friends who live in a different neighborhood, or to treat ourselves with something fancy/different.

> Life is MUCH better, for me, in the suburbs.

I'm genuinely happy for you! I personally don't care so much about having a yard, and we have all the storage space we need. (Frankly I prefer to constrain my storage space a bit, so I don't accumulate more stuff than I need.) We also own, so no need to deal with renting.

But I'm not trying to say you shouldn't live in a suburb, if that's what you want to do! My point is that I do think that some of the things that make cities unlivable for some people are the way they are because of decades of pushes toward car culture. Maybe fixing those things wouldn't sway you, personally, but I think there are lot of suburb dwellers who think, "I wouldn't mind living in the city except for X", and that X is actually something that's not hard to fix, if there was political will to do so.

Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by Mawr on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @06:49PM (#38271468)
You're comparing living in a car dependant city vs living in car dependant suburbs. It's not going to be meaningfully different. You mention the constant noise, but what do you think causes it?

To see what everyone means by car dependency, you'd need to see the few places that aren't.

Here's what a 100% car-free island looks like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWDFgzAjr1k

Here are some progressive European cities that have started to undo the damage that's been done by cars:

• Freiburg, Germany: https://youtu.be/6Vil5KC7Bl0?t=36

• Haarlem, Netherlands: https://youtu.be/ztpcWUqVpIg?t=90

• Paris, France: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSQSBoHmG8s

Check out these background noise levels:

• A very busy mixed-use street in Amsterdam: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqQSwQLDIK8

• Exiting the train station in Delft, Netherlands: https://youtu.be/CTV-wwszGw8?t=289

• Cycling streets in the Netherlands: https://youtu.be/bMJaMy-0ChA?t=242. You can even hear birds chirping at 4:29.

Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by kube-system on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @03:31PM (#38269299)
Anecdotes are anecdotes. The fact is everyone loves their own preferences, because that's what preferences are.

When I lived in the suburbs it took me 28 minutes to drive to the grocery store. When I lived in a city it was a 4 minute bike ride to two different grocery stores.

Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by RHSeeger on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @03:47PM (#38269506)
> When I lived in the suburbs it took me 28 minutes to drive to the grocery store

Wow. That sounds more rural to me. I've lived in 5 or 6 different suburbs (of three different cities, 2 "major" ones) and never been more than 10 minutes from a grocery store; even when I had corn fields in my back yard and drove by cows and apple orchards on the way to the store.

Admittedly, it's possible I'm "dense suburbs" and you're "sparse suburbs"; there's a range. It's just.. 30 minutes is a REALLY long trip for a grocery store.

Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by kelnos on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @06:42PM (#38271410)
I think there's a pretty wide gulf between true "rural" areas and the most dense of the suburbs.

A 30-minute drive to a grocery store in a suburb doesn't surprise me all that much. In the 'burb I lived in during my teens, 15 minutes to the grocery store was essentially the best you could hope for. Add some traffic (pretty common most of the time) and that could easily creep up to 20 or 25 minutes.

(And yeah, I live in a city now, and I can walk to a very well appointed smaller grocery in about 3 minutes.)

Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by kube-system on Thursday November 16, 2023 @12:02PM (#38292075)
Yes, this is the issue I often ran into in the burbs. Traffic management in suburban neighborhoods can be pretty non-existent in some areas.
Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by ravetcofx on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @03:38PM (#38269392)
And that's a very privileged position to take that makes you incredibly reliant on the benevolence of the trillion dollar oil gas, auto and insurance industry that have to pay constant microtransactions to play. It sucks for pretty much everyone else who isn't as privileged or wanting to be a pay pig for the multi-billionaires in comparison to being able to walk, bike and hop on a train.
Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by NegativeLatency on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @03:02PM (#38268827)
I think some people do like the suburbs (and they're allowed to), but the sky high housing costs in "nice" or "popular" cities indicate that there is unmet demand to live in dense walkable areas.

The car industry has been very very successful with equating driving with freedom though which makes this a hard conversation to have with people.

It should all be priced accordingly, you want to drive your private vehicle into my city? Then be prepared to pay a fair value for parking and road maintenance.

Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by psunavy03 on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @03:19PM (#38269100)
> The car industry has been very very successful with equating driving with freedom though which makes this a hard conversation to have with people.

It can't possibly be a "hard conversation to have" because people disagree with you, huh? It has to be that the car companies brainwashed them?

I see this everywhere on social media. "I have an opinion, my opinion is the right one, and if you disagree with me, you didn't actually come to an independent conclusion, you were just brainwashed or had an emotional response."

Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by NegativeLatency on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @03:45PM (#38269478)
Nobody makes ads that make walking look cool or get you to where you’re going in style, because there’s nothing to sell you in that case.

They do make ads of cars taking shortcuts, going to nature, driving really fast, looking really cool etc (closed course, professional driver, do not attempt)

Demand as seen by prices and lack of affordability in walkable areas in the US is sufficient evidence that it’s an underserved market.

BTW You sorta proved my point at how convinced people are, and how it's such a hard conversation to have.

Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by gosub100 on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @03:47PM (#38269502)
> if you disagree with me, you didn't actually come to an independent conclusion

it goes in line with taking rights and responsibilities away from the individual. You want to go somewhere? take the government's approved method of getting there. You dont like smelling urine or seeing trash or getting accosted/threatened by homeless at the train station? too bad, should have voted for my guy, he's 6 votes away from funding the next "program" to help fix it. Sorry we can't fund police, they don't respond to property crimes any more. we need to raise taxes again to fund the next $CHILDREN program, get with the times. and on and on.

Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by Mawr on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @07:06PM (#38271615)
You're right, it's about freedom. The freedom of not having to use a car to get literally anywhere.
Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by mikrotikker on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @04:26PM (#38270035)
Fuck that I love driving, it's one of my favourite hobbies. I can and do drive for hours, 26 hours is about my max.

With my truck I know I can handle anything on the way and be self reliant. I can take lots of water. I can take almost all my tool for any repairs on the road. I can sleep in it. I can traverse off road terrain with the large off road tires. The 4wd can help with icy road conditions. I have a winch to self recover or help others in trouble. The large and bright lights and higher sitting position give good visibility of the road.

These things are popular because they engender self reliance which contributes to practicality and convenience for the driver.

Not everyone has a boring daily commute to a cubicle job in their tiny ev that has 100km range and coming home to put on nature videos while they run on their treadmill. Stop trying to make everyone fit into the same box as you

Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by NegativeLatency on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @04:39PM (#38270174)
> Fuck that I love having my lifestyle subsidized by other people

Interesting that you're actually the one trying to make me fit in your box, when I said that it's fine for people to like what they like. Nobody's saying you can't drive your truck, go off road etc.

I would like to be able to travel the 1/3 of a mile without having conflicts with drivers when I'm trying to walk. Additionally I'd like the freedom to be able to get places with dignity without paying many thousand per year in costs associated with a motor vehicle.

Also since you brought up "self reliance" almost any bicycle is going to be way more repairable than a motor vehicle, and _much_ more reliable, more capable off road etc. Literally children can repair and maintain them.

Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by mikrotikker on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @09:19PM (#38285171)
> make me fit in your box

Not really...

> I would like to be able to travel the 1/3 of a mile without having conflicts with drivers when I'm trying to walk.

Why? Are you flipping off all the SUV drivers you see?

> Also since you brought up "self reliance" almost any bicycle is going to be way more repairable than a motor vehicle, and _much_ more reliable, more capable off road etc. Literally children can repair and maintain them.

Yes and you can still fit tent and stuff in your backpack or take a little trailer if you need. Way less tools needed. Travel lighter, less impact, access more places via skinnier tracks, it's cool. And you get a workout at the same time!

I modify and maintain my own vehicle, so making it back from a 6000km trip on road and off road is very rewarding experience as it proves your abilities at (technical) driving as well as at spinning spanners and camping conveniences. Can cover more ground in a vehicle, visit more places, see more sights. Take a few more creature comforts.

We only get so much time off work.

Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by kelnos on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @06:23PM (#38271254)
Both things can be true though. I agree that there's unmet demand in urban centers, but that doesn't mean that there wouldn't be a massive revolt if laws and regulations made the suburban lifestyle much harder or more expensive.
Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by iambateman on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @03:57PM (#38269648)
This is absolutely correct.

Suburbia is subsidized —- the cost of infrastructure is often 10x the property taxes.

Millions of people are accustomed to paying $1,000/year in taxes to live on a street that costs $9,000 to maintain. “Asking” them to pay the true cost of their decisions is considered politically untenable —- until the city itself goes bankrupt.

Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by notacoward on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @04:01PM (#38269683)
> It's that most people in the US like car-centric culture, and like suburbs.

To put a finer point on it, people who like suburbs live in them. People who dislike them move elsewhere - forfeiting any voting rights they might have had where the problems are most acute. So who's left to fight the NIMBYs and car-lovers where it matters? Too damn few, by a long shot ... and this outcome was obvious to anyone who was actually thinking about society or the long term instead of just themselves and the next few years.

If you want to solve anything, instead of just shifting the problems around, you have to solve them where people are and will remain. Stay and fight. Unfortunately that's hard so almost nobody does it.

Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by Mawr on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @05:48PM (#38270928)
Ask the Dutch if they like their bicycles and the Japanese if they like their trains. They'll say yes. Funny that.

People like the environment they grew up in, it's part of their identity. Americans are no different.

Very few people go out of their way to meaningfully explore different approaches to life around the world and form an informed opinion on what they like.