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Re:Gigantic heat caverns in Mustikkamaa have now been filled... by coffeebeqn on Friday November 10, 2023 @11:11AM (#38220593)
I wonder why they used tap water instead of seawater
Re:Gigantic heat caverns in Mustikkamaa have now been filled... by lazide on Friday November 10, 2023 @11:32AM (#38220878)
Seawater is a corrosion nightmare. Even tap water is going to soak up minerals from the rock eventually and be a problem, but it will still be less of a problem than seawater will from the very start.

The only advantage seawater usually has is it’s ’free’ if you’re on the coast. But in many habitable climates, freshwater is ‘free’ too. Like most of Finland.

Re:Gigantic heat caverns in Mustikkamaa have now been filled... by citrin_ru on Friday November 10, 2023 @11:22AM (#38220745)
Why they should use seawater? Fresh water is not in shortage in this region - yearly precipitation significantly exceeds evaporation.
Re:Gigantic heat caverns in Mustikkamaa have now been filled... by onetimeuse92304 on Friday November 10, 2023 @12:13PM (#38221461)
Please, take a look at the map. Even cursory inspection of it will reveal to you that Finland is the land of lakes.

Finland has vast stores of fresh water and annual precipitation has nothing to do with it.

Re:Gigantic heat caverns in Mustikkamaa have now been filled... by alright2565 on Friday November 10, 2023 @12:21PM (#38221575)
They have a massive desalination and pipeline operation to create lakes throughout the country?

Or is it the the sun and rain that created the lakes?

Re:Gigantic heat caverns in Mustikkamaa have now been filled... by toivotuo on Friday November 10, 2023 @12:42PM (#38221905)
https://www.geographyrealm.com/finland-many-lakes/

Thanks to the last ice age and retreating glaciers...

Re:Gigantic heat caverns in Mustikkamaa have now been filled... by krisoft on Friday November 10, 2023 @01:09PM (#38222286)
Ice age and retreating glaciers created holes. And those holes filled up by the melt water of the glaciers.

The fact that they are still full of water is due to them being replenished by precipitation more than they lose water. If they would lose more water then what flows into them we would be speaking about the "land of many bone dry holes" in the famous Finnish desert.

Re:Gigantic heat caverns in Mustikkamaa have now been filled... by BurningFrog on Friday November 10, 2023 @01:05PM (#38222236)
To a first approximation, Finland is on average a swamp. Thousands and thousands of lakes everywhere.
Re:Gigantic heat caverns in Mustikkamaa have now been filled... by hiAndrewQuinn on Friday November 10, 2023 @02:16PM (#38223198)
The Finnish name for Finland, Suomi, literally means "Land of Swamps". And it is awesome here.
Re:Gigantic heat caverns in Mustikkamaa have now been filled... by euroderf on Friday November 10, 2023 @04:02PM (#38224487)
That is one proposed etymology of "Suomi".
Re:Gigantic heat caverns in Mustikkamaa have now been filled... by I_Am_Nous on Friday November 10, 2023 @05:54PM (#38225659)
It makes sense that Finns love rally so much then, if all the roads are weaving around swamps!
Re:Gigantic heat caverns in Mustikkamaa have now been filled... by Scoundreller on Friday November 10, 2023 @08:29PM (#38226692)
Slightly higher boiling point? Fewer antimicrobial additives required?
Re:Gigantic heat caverns in Mustikkamaa have now been filled... by Filligree on Friday November 10, 2023 @11:15AM (#38220649)
Seawater erodes everything it touches. It isn’t impossible to build hardware that touches it, but it’s more expensive and needs more maintenance.

Fresh water makes the entire project much cheaper.

Re:Gigantic heat caverns in Mustikkamaa have now been filled... by Sharlin on Friday November 10, 2023 @11:21AM (#38220730)
And this water is supposed to be fed directly into the homes of hundreds of thousands of customers through the existing district heating network which obviously isn't built with seawater in mind. A seawater storage facility would at the very least require a heat exchanger which would decrease efficiency.
Re:Gigantic heat caverns in Mustikkamaa have now been filled... by michpoch on Friday November 10, 2023 @11:38AM (#38220968)
I don't think they'll be pumping that water directly into the heat distribution system. My understanding is that it'll be used as a heat reservoir and there will be some sort of heat exchanger to get the heat out of it.
Re:Gigantic heat caverns in Mustikkamaa have now been filled... by lazide on Friday November 10, 2023 @11:43AM (#38221039)
It would be more efficient without the heat exchanger, but you’re almost certainly right - the reservoir water would probably be too oxygenated/mineralized for direct use if being stored in contact with the rock, at least without a lot of additional treatment.

Don’t want to kill all those underground pipes with mineral buildup as things precipitate out as it cools.

Re:Gigantic heat caverns in Mustikkamaa have now been filled... by Filligree on Friday November 10, 2023 @12:23PM (#38221610)
Counterflow heat exchangers easily approach 100% efficiency. It needs to be large enough, and needs sensors to control the flow, but both of those are trivial at this scale.
Re:Gigantic heat caverns in Mustikkamaa have now been filled... by lazide on Friday November 10, 2023 @02:46PM (#38223592)
They’ll need to move 2x the volume of water, and have more infrastructure to maintain - even if it was actually 100% thermally efficient. Not counting capital costs. Which I’d count as efficiency issues.

The water pumping and maintenance costs are likely going to be their largest ongoing costs, no?

Re:Gigantic heat caverns in Mustikkamaa have now been filled... by onetimeuse92304 on Friday November 10, 2023 @12:16PM (#38221506)
> It would be more efficient without the heat exchanger,

No, the only cost really is the cost of heat exchanger and maybe energy to pump water through the heat exchanger. Heat exchange approaches 100% thermal efficiency with large enough heat exchanger.

Re:Gigantic heat caverns in Mustikkamaa have now been filled... by mschuster91 on Friday November 10, 2023 @12:20PM (#38221553)
> It would be more efficient without the heat exchanger

Not really, heat pumps as a transfer method can achieve better total efficiency and make distribution of the heat easier.

Re:Gigantic heat caverns in Mustikkamaa have now been filled... by lazide on Friday November 10, 2023 @03:22PM (#38224010)
That is an interesting thought, but seems like the capex and ongoing electrical costs of the heat pump would be too high?

They’re looking to make cheap use of the existing waste heat, after all, which while ‘low quality’ is high enough quality for district heating already.

Re:Gigantic heat caverns in Mustikkamaa have now been filled... by Sharlin on Friday November 10, 2023 @12:01PM (#38221288)
Ah, on second thought you're probably right.
Re:Gigantic heat caverns in Mustikkamaa have now been filled... by Hamuko on Friday November 10, 2023 @11:55AM (#38221201)
Re:Gigantic heat caverns in Mustikkamaa have now been filled... by onetimeuse92304 on Friday November 10, 2023 @12:15PM (#38221483)
I don't think it is this water that is going to be fed directly to homes. More likely there is going to be systems of heat exchangers.

They mention they are recovering heat from waste water. Obviously, they aren't pumping waste water into the system but rather use heat exchange to extract energy.

Re:Gigantic heat caverns in Mustikkamaa have now been filled... by Torkel on Friday November 10, 2023 @11:42AM (#38221019)
Sibling comments are on to this too, but I think an important detail here is that the water in lakes, river and ground in the nordics is so clean that the extra cleaning needed to make it "tap water" isn't really as big of a deal as it might be in other parts of the world.
Re:Gigantic heat caverns in Mustikkamaa have now been filled... by kwhitefoot on Friday November 10, 2023 @12:34PM (#38221788)
The little town I live in (about 40 km south of Oslo) is supplied from a lake in the granite hills. They filter out the bugs and precipitate the solids with a little aluminium sulphate and that's it. It's above all the agriculture so no chlorine is needed and there is no chalk so no problems with deposits on the insides of kettles and water heaters.
Re:Gigantic heat caverns in Mustikkamaa have now been filled... by ahartmetz on Friday November 10, 2023 @08:08PM (#38226566)
Does it taste good?

My favorite so far has been Vienna - I would describe it as similar to Evian.

Re:Gigantic heat caverns in Mustikkamaa have now been filled... by kwhitefoot on Sunday November 19, 2023 @01:04PM (#38335589)
It has been crowned best water in the country. Yes it tastes good, I'm quite happy to put it in my Laphroiag.
Re:Gigantic heat caverns in Mustikkamaa have now been filled... by euroderf on Friday November 10, 2023 @04:08PM (#38224561)
Finland has a small number of lakes that are basically dead from pollution from pulp & paper plants. The rest are quite clean. Helsinki's tap water comes from Päijänne, the large lake that basically runs from Lahti northward to Jyväskylä.