It sounds like you think Apple's only value proposition is social status, as if iPhones and Macbooks are the digital equivalent of owning a Porsche or Ferrari. While Apple products do carry more cachet than most competitors, that's by no means the embodiment of Apple products. The social status of owning an Apple product is overstated, IMO. I believe that, even for the proverbial Starbucks hipster, cachet is a tertiary aspect of Apple products. Said products aren't perfect, but they're straight forward, reliable, and have clean designs. Apple was also first to market (or at least that's the perception) with many cool things like a serious mp3 player (iPod), a phone with a touchscreen that can replace a traditional computer for many (iPhone), wireless earbuds that don't suck nearly as much as the competition (AirPods), and so on; when someone buys Apple products, part of the motivation comes from the hope that they'll get first access to something cool, or own something that will work well with the next cool thing.

I'd be bullish on Apple not because of social status, but because they're a well run company that provides clear value to its customers. Many of us may disagree with the choices they make, but Apple makes most of those choices very rationally. Social status is worthless the minute people no longer care see Apple as providing them that status. Hardware and software ecosystems, on the other hand, don't become worthless overnight unless you're in the pager business.

This is absolutely the case for GenZ where they've ditched the hyper-individualism of my generation and tend to be far more conformist in nature.

Obviously it was always the case to some extent that the latest Apple gadget or Nike trainers were seen as trendy, but GenZ specifically seem to have taken this to a whole new level where it's actively damaging to one's self image not to have an iPhone or a nice pair of white Nike trainers.

Given this, perhaps the interesting question to ask is what has caused that change. Is it a counter reaction to the individualism preached by my generation, or is it social media putting the youth under more pressure than ever to conform? If it's the latter then it seems companies viewed as fashionable are likely to continue to take market share from competitors which are not. But if it's the former then perhaps this current obsession with having the latest iPhone will soon be replaced by people just wanting something basic that does what they need, but doesn't make a statement.

I think to be bullish on Apple I think you need to have an opinion on that.

What percentage of Apple's sales do you attribute to these types of reasons? they sell a couple hundred million of them per year.

Adidas trainers can be described as a fashion item purchased by people who just want the logo. I buy Adidas trainers because I've learned they fit my foot shape better than most and last longer than cheaper brands I've tried. Similarly I've tried a couple android phones and ended up on iPhones.

You have it backwards IMO, the only reason Apple is able to achieve this effect is because their phones are heads and shoulders above the rest in hardware quality and integration. Build it (well) and they will come

> You have it backwards IMO, the only reason Apple is able to achieve this effect is because their phones are heads and shoulders above the rest in hardware quality and integration. Build it (well) and they will come

Well this doesn't explain why a person is upgrading from last year's model, which effectively does every single thing just as well.

The status symbol feature is what makes people upgrade _when they don't need to_. Apple has that, other manufacturers don't.

While I am simply astonishing that so many people are playing along with such an obvious bad-faith troll as the root of this thread...

The vast majority of Apple users don't upgrade year over year. Those that do generally take advantage of fantastic resale values to get the upgrade at little price.

And are you claiming that Samsung or Pixel owners aren't doing the same? I know a number of peers who buy whatever is the newest, and it certainly isn't limited to Apple users.

> The vast majority of Apple users don't upgrade year over year.

I agree with that. But young people - for whom status symbols carry the most weight - generally upgrade their iphone in less than two years at a clip of ~50%.

> And are you claiming that Samsung or Pixel owners aren't doing the same?

I didn't claim that. I don't know. But it's less of an investment and far less of a status symbol.

"But young people"

Can you cite your source? Like what does "young people" mean? Many young people with iPhones have old devices with broken screens. I can find a Gallup survey from 7 years ago claiming an upgrade rate every 2 years (actually they answered "whatever my provider supports", which isn't as relevant now), but notably the differences were much bigger between generations in 2015. Now many would be hard pressed to differentiate an XR from a 15.

"I didn't claim that."

You literally said "Apple has that, other manufacturers don't.". It's simply untrue. My wife has an XR and I cannot convince her to upgrade as she just doesn't want the hassle of moving to a new device. And of course that XR still gets the latest OS, updates, supports all apps, etc, quite a contrast from many competitors...

"But it's less of an investment"

Many Samsung devices are more expensive than Apple devices. Pixel 8 devices are similarly priced. As to the status claim, it's amazing how much more of a status thing non-Apple device holders make about their choice than people just choose a very good quality, high performance, well and long supported Apple device...

> Can you cite your source? Like what does "young people" mean?

Sure. 18-24

https://www.phonearena.com/news/How-long-do-iPhone-users-tak...

Apple's main thing is that their devices and systems are appliances. They restrict what can be done to the most common tasks so those tasks can be polished. Tasks that they don't support are often more or less impossible to do.

And that's probably what most people want, or think they want.

100%, if there were another option with the same build quality (particularly for laptops) I’d love to try something new. Everything else is kinda mediocre in comparison.

(The funniest thing is when folks on some Thinkpad or Dell think their machine has a comparable quality… It really doesn’t. You might not care in much the same way someone might care or not care about Tesla’s historically poor fitment, but there’s a real difference regardless).

I haven't found a single laptop that competes with the Macbook on build quality, but moving to a Pixel phone from an iPhone was basically a wash.

One time around 2012 I was buying a laptop for someone who needed a Windows machine. Knowing the poor build quality of various low end options we decided to splurge and get a top of the line Dell model with a nicer magnesium case etc. with a price tag close to $2k. We unboxed it, powered it on, and were greeted by a loud grating noise that went away if you flexed the case.

Returned it immediately been using Apple laptops ever since.

That is not true. Nothing Apple does say Samsung cannot repeat, heck these 2 specifically share quite a bit of hardware too, ie screens. In fact top of the line Samsung is more impressive to me, it manages to store whole chargeable pen in the body and is lighter than comparable Apple models.

There are much better sounding headphones/earplugs, ie Sennheiser.

Apple does fine products (and their share of fails), but their secret sauce is a mix of PR, timing, brilliant leadership, and tons of luck with ie that timing to market. Hardware quality is good, but that's true for literally everybody in the field and is definitely not the differentiating factor these days.

This reads like that famous line criticizing the iPod for having worse hardware specs than a competitor.

You need to include vertical integration and design in their secret sauce. Everybody else has been struggling to catch up ever since the iPod came out, and IMO they have not caught up yet.

I see all that, but there is a sizable market that just can't afford an iPhone that's worth looking at. Though maybe if used iPhones are usable for longer time periods, that eats a little into Android's dominance of the low end?

No, because they have financing. Everyone can afford iphones. Teenagers without jobs can afford iphones.

The system seems perfect.

>Everyone can afford iphones

Sorry, but this just isn't true, loan or not.

Seems to me that you're praising Apple for the worst excess of capitalism, turning phones into status symbols, encouraging consumerism and vendor lock-in.

Granted, I got a Pixel 8 this year, but mostly because my old phone was falling apart at the seam. I planned to design my own skin if only to incentivize me to not take off armoring from my phone.

They aren't praising Apple. It's the incredibly lame, intellectually vapid, ignorant, boorish "only silly people buy Apple devices, and for silly reasons" noise that has been the tired retort of weird anti-Apple sorts of the past decade and a half. That people are still plying this rhetoric in 2023 is simply pathetic.

Particularly weird given that a) Apple devices stay in service much longer than competitors, b) Apple sales swooned as well. It turns out that people are pretty satisfied with their devices.

Well Apple's iPhone business is not doing particularly well. It's one of the biggest losers in this upgrade cycle delay, with Nest/Pixel being the only manufacturer growing.

Being bullish on excess capitalism during a slow down doesn't seem like a no-brainer play to me.

But to each their own.

Realistically, I'm just not sure how much growth Apple has unless India becomes a gigantic market and pulls of a China miracle of its own.

It's already by a large margin the largest private company in the world...

Did you even read the article?

First thing, Apple is the smallest loser in this upgrade cycle. Being only downed 11% compared to downed 37% for Google.

Second, the only manufacturer growing is Motorola. Not Pixel/Next.

The article is incorrect then. Nest is growing.

https://9to5google.com/2023/07/28/google-pixel-us-q2-2023-sh...

> But, despite Android as a whole losing ground, Google Pixel phones are becoming a bigger slice of the US market.

https://www.androidpolice.com/smartphone-sales-slump-google-...

> Smartphone sales are slumping this year, but not for Google

https://www.androidpolice.com/alphabet-google-q4-2022-earnin...

> Pichai went on to note that Pixels “gained share in every market” Google operated in this year.

If only Apple sold more than just iPhones and had some type of services business that could leverage their base of customers to get continuing growing revenue…

That's a weird bubble people have put themselves in, but isn't a rough economy going to have the opposite effect, that people will take a harder look and realize it's all marketing BS and phones are all pretty much the same now? In other words, it's expensive to let yourself be taken in by the idea of a possession being a status symbol so it's one of the first thing to go when it stops making sense.

Over a two year contract, the difference between a low end iPhone and an Android is meaningless once people are making monthly payments on their phone

I don’t think I could be more in disagreement and Apple’s third straight quarter of falling sales seems to support that. At some point everyone has a phone that is good enough and no one cares what phone you have. I feel the same way about Tesla now and see a lot of parallels. I sold mine and I really don’t see it as the status symbol it used to be. There are lots of Teslas around, they even look kind of dated now. And who wants to be associated with Elon or the tons of lame people that just got a Tesla as a status symbol? I’m looking with anticipation at the new Volvo EX30 EV that starts at 35k.

I can see something similar happening with phones except a new iPhone has no revolutionary technology like an EV does to entice someone. My iPhone 12 Mini works awesome and will be pried out of my cold dead hands, since they have stopped making small phones.

How is anything a status symbol that is owned by 60% of the population in the US?

You can get an iPhone for $20 a month or less from either Apple or the carrier.

Heck even the low cost MVNOs are offering a “free iPhone”.

Cosmetic changes like different colors and materials make it possible to distinguish who has the latest model and who has last year's as well as between the base and the pro models. It may seem pretty subtle, but status signaling is often subtle at the high end.

Most people use cases…

Apple’s average replacement cycle hasn’t been every year for a decade if ever.

And if most people are upgrading yearly, why would Apple bother releasing security updates back to the iPhone 5s (2013) in the last year

I'm not trying to argue that most people upgrade yearly. I don't have any knowledge or opinion about that. I'm also not saying people only buy iphones for status. I have one myself, for pragmatic reasons. I'm just pointing out that a majority of people owning a particular brand doesn't mean people can't signal status with that brand. They can still do it by owning particular models. You see this all the time with cars. The a new high-end Lexus conveys status even though you see a lot of old beat up Lexuses being driven around by poorer people. The subtle design changes of iphones from year to year, I would argue, are meant to provide that same effect.