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Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by graypegg on Sunday November 05, 2023 @11:34AM (#38152647)
Stainless steel with some basic seasoning every once in a while (oil, high heat, it’s easy to do) has done me well for a long time.

I do keep a non stick around just for eggs though, hard to beat.

Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by namdnay on Sunday November 05, 2023 @11:41AM (#38152726)
I’m not sure you can really season stainless steel? It’s not porous
Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by williamdclt on Sunday November 05, 2023 @11:44AM (#38152771)
You’re right that you don’t season stainless steel, but I think it is porous, that’s why it sticks (don’t quote me on that)
Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by reaperman on Sunday November 05, 2023 @12:12PM (#38153112)
I have gotten an amazing season on stainless steel by slowly cooking oil onto it. It crosslinke into a super hard super smooth almost ceramic surface.

You can also use a drill attachment polish one stainless steel pan to a mirror chrome finish, then heat it up, add oil and add the rgg to thr cold oil. For me that guarantees teflon level performance of nonstick. However, the mirror finish has lower emissivity so its a bit weird at first when a hot pan doesnt seem to transfer heat to the food at nearly the rate that it “should”.

Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by SkyPuncher on Sunday November 05, 2023 @12:38PM (#38153399)
You can’t season it like cast, but you can definitely get a really nice anti-stuck surface on it.

A lot of people will treat their woks with oil to get that type of low stick surface.

Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by namdnay on Sunday November 05, 2023 @12:45PM (#38153478)
Woks are carbon steel, not stainless
Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by amanaplanacanal on Sunday November 05, 2023 @12:47PM (#38153498)
Usually woks are carbon steel rather than stainless though, and definitely need an oil seasoning.
Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by SkyPuncher on Sunday November 05, 2023 @08:24PM (#38157715)
It still works. I do it on my stainless wok.

It certainly isn't as resilient as my cast iron, but it works and is super easy.

Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by r00fus on Sunday November 05, 2023 @12:38PM (#38153400)
I’ve switched over from nonstick to pre-seasoned carbon steel for my eggs and meats. Stainless steel for all other things.
Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by sneak on Sunday November 05, 2023 @11:41AM (#38152731)
I really love eggs, but they’re really high in cholesterol. It’s better to skip them, sadly.
Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by capableweb on Sunday November 05, 2023 @11:42AM (#38152745)
If your aim is to avoid anything that could potentially be dangerous for you in high quantities, how fun would life really be?

You can lower your intake rather than skipping out on life's gold like scrambled eggs.

Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by Fishman343 on Sunday November 05, 2023 @11:44AM (#38152768)
Being high in cholesterol doesn't necessarily mean they need to be omitted. Look up Japanese egg consumption & see the country's relative good health.
Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by CptFribble on Sunday November 05, 2023 @11:45AM (#38152780)
You don't need to skip eggs! They are high in cholesterol, but the dietary cholesterol from eggs doesn't impact your serum (blood) cholesterol levels the way other fats do. Eggs are one of the best bang-for-your-buck foods you can work into your diet.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/high-blood-ch...

Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by sneak on Sunday November 05, 2023 @11:50AM (#38152837)
The site you linked says that studies have shown a link between eating eggs and heart disease, which was the basis of my suggestion that they be avoided.

> Although some studies have found a link between eating eggs and heart disease, there could be other reasons for these findings.

and:

> Health experts now suggest eating as little dietary cholesterol as you can, aiming to keep intake under 300 milligrams (mg) a day. One large egg has about 186 mg of cholesterol — all of which is found in the yolk.

People really like eggs, me included. That unfortunately doesn’t change the fact that they’re bad for you and we shouldn’t eat them (and I no longer do). Two eggs is more than the recommended daily total amount of cholesterol, and a good omelette is 3. I don’t imagine most people are going to be vegan for 60 hours following to compensate.

Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by spirit557 on Sunday November 05, 2023 @12:23PM (#38153230)
Straight from the 2015 USDA guidelines:

Previously, the Dietary Guidelines for Americans recommended that cholesterol intake be limited to no more than 300 milligrams per day. The 2015 DGAC will not bring forward this recommendation because available evidence shows no appreciable relationship between consumption of dietary cholesterol and serum cholesterol, consistent with the conclusions of the AHA/ACC report. Cholesterol is not a nutrient of concern for overconsumption.

Page 72: https://health.gov/sites/default/files/2019-09/Scientific-Re...

Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by tpush on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:30PM (#38154034)
Straight from the actual current guidelines:

"A note on trans fats and dietary cholesterol: The National Academies recommends that trans fat and dietary cholesterol consumption to be as low as possible without compromising the nutritional adequacy of the diet. The USDA Dietary Patterns are limited in trans fats and low in dietary cholesterol. Cholesterol and a small amount of trans fat occur naturally in some animal source foods. As of June 2018, partially hydrogenated oils (PHOs), the major source of artificial trans fat in the food supply, are no longer Generally Recognized as Safe (GRAS). Therefore, PHOs are no longer added to foods."

Source: https://www.dietaryguidelines.gov/sites/default/files/2020-1...

Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by raincole on Sunday November 05, 2023 @02:02PM (#38154401)
And you got downvoted. I guess the guideline only matter to people when it doesn't comes to their favorite foods.
Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by duckmysick on Sunday November 05, 2023 @03:06PM (#38155091)
So, I've read the linked report. I think it's important to include the full context. If it wasn't important, it wouldn't be in the report in the first place.

The quote appears on page 44. On the same page, before the quote, there's additional information about saturated fats:

> Healthy U.S.-Style Dietary Pattern include saturated fat. Approximately 5 percent of total calories inherent to the nutrient-dense foods in the Healthy U.S.-Style Dietary Pattern are from saturated fat from sources such as lean meat, poultry, and eggs; nuts and seeds; grains; and saturated fatty acids in oils. As such, there is little room to include additional saturated fat in a healthy dietary pattern while staying within limits for saturated fat and total calories.

Following that, on page 45, there's figure 1-11 called "Top Sources and Average Intakes of Saturated Fat: U.S. Population Ages 1 and Older". It breaks down the average saturated fat consumption by food types. It's summarized on the page 44:

> The main sources of saturated fat in the U.S. diet include sandwiches, including burgers, tacos, and burritos; desserts and sweet snacks; and rice, pasta, and other grain-based mixed dishes.

The Figure 1-11 shows that eggs amount to 3% of the average saturate fat intake; same as starchy vegetables (3%) and slightly less than non-starchy vegetables (4%). The main sources, as mentioned before, are sandwiches (19%) and desserts and snacks (11%).

Right after that there are practical recommendations about limiting saturated fats intake:

> Strategies to lower saturated fat intake include reducing intakes of dessert and sweet snacks by consuming smaller portion sizes and eating these foods less often. Additional strategies include reading food labels to choose packaged foods lower in saturated fats and choosing lower fat forms of foods and beverages (e.g., fat-free or low-fat milk instead of 2 percent or whole milk; lean rather than fatty cuts of meat). When cooking and purchasing meals, select lean meat and lower fat cheese in place of high-fat meats and regular cheese—or replace them with ingredients with oils, such as nuts, seeds, or avocado. Cook and purchase products made with oils higher in polyunsaturated and monounsaturated fat (e.g., canola, corn, olive, peanut, safflower, soybean, and sunflower) rather than butter, shortening, or coconut or palm oils.

Careful readers will notice eggs don't appear in the above paragraph.

Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by tpush on Sunday November 05, 2023 @03:25PM (#38155283)
? This is about dietary cholesterol, not saturated fat.
Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by ahoka on Sunday November 05, 2023 @12:03PM (#38152989)
Maybe just avoid heart diseases and then you can have as many eggs as you would like. Correlation works both ways.
Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by erikpukinskis on Sunday November 05, 2023 @11:47AM (#38152808)
Just eat pasture raised eggs. It’s only the grain fed eggs that have bad cholesterol.

They’re expensive, but given the nutrient density it’s worth it for me.

Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by didgeoridoo on Sunday November 05, 2023 @12:37PM (#38153383)
There is no such thing as dietary “bad cholesterol”.

When people use that term, it generally refers to low-density lipoproteins, which are an endogenous transportation mechanism for cholesterol in your body.

All dietary cholesterol is just cholesterol, and it essentially has no impact on serum (blood) cholesterol levels.

Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by whycome on Sunday November 05, 2023 @12:55PM (#38153593)
Are you saying that dietary fat won't make me fat?
Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by WizardClickBoy on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:36PM (#38154093)
I have nothing to back this up with* but my understanding is that simple carbohydrates like sugar are more readily converted to bodily fat. Dietary fat is digested and processed by the body into component parts that are less readily converted into bodily fat. It's not like your body just takes fat and stores it directly in your love handles unmodified.

*Found this though: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1199523/

Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by callalex on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:57PM (#38154361)
Yes, unless you eat too much.
Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by asow92 on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:10PM (#38153782)
A few points to demonstrate why your comment might be seen as unpopular:

1) Dietary (exogenous) cholesterol has been shown to have a lesser affect to the total cholesterol levels in the blood (70-80% of all the cholesterol in your body is produced by your body endogenously by your liver and other tissues).

2) Eggs are an affordable source of various fats and proteins that are essential to metabolic health.

3) There are a group of people who assert that correcting hypercholesterolemia is best done by understanding the root cause of the overproduction of endogenous cholesterol.

4) We are beginning to understand that not all cholesterol is the same, and that high total cholesterol alone isn't a sufficient biomarker for predicting heart disease. Advanced lipoprotein fractionation tests looking for the ratio of small dense LDL to normal LDL, and HDL cholesterol is a better test; small dense LDL is bad and is a biomarker for inflammation and artery calcification, which can lead to heart disease.

Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by arcticbull on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:55PM (#38154324)
Of serum cholesterol about 80% is made by your liver, it doesn't come from your diet. [1]

[1] https://www.health.harvard.edu/heart-health/how-its-made-cho...

Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by graypegg on Sunday November 05, 2023 @02:07PM (#38154471)
I didn’t downvote but

5) we’re talking about pans, not diet. I am well aware that eggs aren’t health food and it comes off as condescending.

Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by asow92 on Sunday November 05, 2023 @03:05PM (#38155073)
I wouldn't agree that eggs aren't a health food.
Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by boborhythm on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:30PM (#38154027)
Some good comments on this already. The series of posts at [0] probably has more detail than needed. Some quotes from the summary of part 1.

> Most of the cholesterol we eat is not absorbed and is excreted by our gut...

> ...most of the cholesterol in our body was made by our body.

> The process of regulating cholesterol is very complex and multifaceted with multiple layers of control.

> Eating cholesterol has very little impact on the cholesterol levels in your body.

[0] https://peterattiamd.com/the-straight-dope-on-cholesterol-pa...

Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by kfoley on Sunday November 05, 2023 @11:57AM (#38152918)
We use seasoned cast iron for eggs with very few issues. We used to use butter which led to some sticking, however recently we've been using olive oil and it's much better, with little to no sticking depending on what style we're cooking the eggs.
Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by ronyeh on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:02PM (#38153667)
Wow I've had the opposite experience with my lodge cast iron pan.

Butter is the only thing that allows my eggs to not stick.

Olive oil and vegetable oils in general cause more sticking.

Maybe we preheat our pans differently? Do you use very low heat but preheat for a longer time?

Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by arcticbull on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:37PM (#38154113)
Once properly seasoned (not in the r/castiron sense, but cooked on for a while on top of a solid base coast of seasoning) I just don't really get any sticking at all on my lodge pans. Oil or butter. There's recommendations for pan temp, etc, but I'd say just cook on it some more and it stops mattering.

When I first get a new pan it's very picky with technique, but cooking some bacon and steak on it for a few weeks, and nothing sticks anymore.

Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by kfoley on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:31PM (#38154047)
Interesting, I've also got a Lodge. I use a low heat with a longer preheat, usually somewhere between a 3 or 4 out of 10 for for I'd say 2-3 minutes or so to preheat (not sure if that's relatively long or not).

Maybe it's the seasoning? I haven't seasoned ours in a long time but the last time I did I used flax seed oil.

Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by meristohm on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:08PM (#38153745)
Higher heat means there's a more robust steam layer, but then that means you either need to be stirring or flipping or adding some water and a lid for steaming.

To heat the pan I turn the electric range to high for a bit and then down to 4 (of 10), and then I turn it off before the eggs are done, as the thick cast-iron pan and the glass and coil has enough residual energy. Same for popcorn, same for pancakes, etc.

Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by jghn on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:06PM (#38153713)
I love my Lodge but modern cast irons like Lodge can never get that true non-stick texture that people talk about, although it can reach a not bad level [1]

[1] https://www.seriouseats.com/the-truth-about-cast-iron#toc-my...

Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by arcticbull on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:41PM (#38154155)
This guy seemed to manage. Here's a video of an egg cooked on a cast iron skillet without oil. [1]

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33OaD3RikXo

Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by tass on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:40PM (#38154142)
You can sand them as a DIY project. I haven’t done this myself but am now considering it after reading how easy it is.
Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by snazz on Sunday November 05, 2023 @02:24PM (#38154644)
Just wear a respirator if you do, that dust isn’t good for you :)
Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by ronyeh on Sunday November 05, 2023 @02:21PM (#38154608)
Thanks for the replies everyone. I've loved and cooked on my cast iron and carbon steel pans for years but recently life got busy and I went back to non stick for some things (like scrambled eggs or salmon skin).

I think we just forget how low maintenance a non stick pan is for normal people who don't care about cooking. To normal folks, the idea of preheating a pan slowly, or wiping some oil on with a piece of paper and reheating the pan to dry it (after cooking!) are extra steps that take time out of your busy day. I do notice I use fewer paper towels once switching back to nonstick. I probably also use less oil in my cooking too!

Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by rpastuszak on Sunday November 05, 2023 @03:03PM (#38155048)
Do you mean just salmon skin? How do you prepare it?
Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by tlavoie on Sunday November 05, 2023 @05:24PM (#38156285)
I just smoked a batch of salmon, skin-on. When we eat some, some very happy dogs get the skin. I would be curious if there was a good prep for human consumption though.
Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by ronyeh on Sunday November 05, 2023 @09:29PM (#38158090)
Humans can eat it the same way. I just pan fry until it's crispy and add some salt to taste. My kids love fried salmon skin (along with salmon + rice + dry seaweed wrap).
Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by rpastuszak on Monday November 06, 2023 @04:21AM (#38160376)
This sounds great! A salmon version of pork cracklings but somewhat more umami.
Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by tlavoie on Monday November 06, 2023 @01:11AM (#38159424)
I'm not usually a fan of the texture straight off the meat, but frying it up does sound good! And after all, this has been smoked already, so there's a ton of flavor.
Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by bluedino on Sunday November 05, 2023 @02:26PM (#38154666)
No love for shortening, lard, or good old bacon grease (if you're eating eggs you're likely eating bacon as well)?
Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by lost_tourist on Thursday November 09, 2023 @02:57PM (#38210276)
I generally preheat my cast iron until drops of water instantly sizzle away or for searing dance around the pan . I pretty much only use extra virgin olive oil (low heat cooking) or avacado oil (high heat cooking, like searing a steak) in a well seasoned cast iron pan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leidenfrost_effect
Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by meristohm on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:05PM (#38153699)
Same here. One thing that works really well to cook eggs in our daily-use cast-iron pan is to add a tablespoon or so of water and put a lid on; the steam cooks the top of the eggs this way. Not great if you like your eggs brown and crispy, but it is very easy to clean; if there are any stray bits I just wipe them out with paper and put that in the compost.
Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by lost_tourist on Sunday November 05, 2023 @03:21PM (#38155234)
yeah I use my hexclad or well seasoned cast iron for eggs. An unsung hero is also carbon steel, as it's lighter and smoother (unless want to pay arm and a leg for super smooth bottom ground cast iron). Stainless is great for sauces or something that has a lot of acid (which can eat away at your seasoning in in cast/carbon steel). Carbon steel is super easy to season as well because it's extremely smooth.
Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by SAI_Peregrinus on Sunday November 05, 2023 @05:06PM (#38156128)
If you've got a respirator & an angle grinder, cast iron is easy to grind smooth.
Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by lost_tourist on Tuesday November 07, 2023 @06:27PM (#38184578)
but y tho? I use (in addition to my carbon steel pans) the standard cast iron el cheapo version of Lodge and nothing sticks if you season your pan and heat to the proper temperature.
Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by Y_Y on Sunday November 05, 2023 @11:58AM (#38152933)
Eggs aren't hard to beat if you've got a good whisk.
Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by graypegg on Sunday November 05, 2023 @02:02PM (#38154400)
Haha, I see how I wrote that weird. I mean “hard to beat” like “it’s so good at being non stick to eggs compared to anything else”
Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by 29athrowaway on Sunday November 05, 2023 @12:01PM (#38152973)
Ramen eggs is where it's at.
Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by vosper on Sunday November 05, 2023 @12:44PM (#38153458)
I think carbon steel is better than stainless. It can be seasoned to almost Teflon levels of non-stickness, just by burning some cooking oil, the seasoning is maintained by cooking, often comes pre-seasoned, is cheap (there’s no reason to buy an expensive carbon steel pan! Get one from a restaurant supplier)
Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by ainiriand on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:32PM (#38154053)
So you eat burnt oil every time you cook?
Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by arcticbull on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:45PM (#38154204)
No, like with a cast iron skillet, the hard, black, very-attached, coating is the burnt oil. Cast iron and carbon steel are normally shiny metal, not dull black, without this layer.

The oil fills the pores of the metal and polymerizes. Subsequent layers cross-link with each other to develop the non-stick coating. It doesn't really 'come off' although I'm sure small amounts will occasionally. It doesn't contribute to flavor and it's not exactly toxic. Same deal as cast iron, details here. [1]

[1] https://www.lodgecastiron.com/cleaning-and-care/cast-iron/sc...

Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by lost_tourist on Sunday November 05, 2023 @03:17PM (#38155197)
only if you don't clean out your pan. Any youtube video on seasoning it will explain it quite well. Seasoning isn't "burnt oil" by any stretch or chemistry.
Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by Doxin on Monday November 06, 2023 @03:33AM (#38160073)
Most oils polymerize at high temperatures. Getting the temperature juuuust right is pretty tricky in a home setting. Much easier is to just burn the shit out of the oil and wipe away the burnt oil, leaving any oil that happened to polymerize behind.

This is in fact how they used to make linseed based paints. They'd boil the oil, setting the stage for it to polymerize, and add pigments. The oil would slowly polymerize after being applied, locking the pigment into place. These days I think they mostly use chemical accelerants instead, Which makes the curing times much more tolerable.

Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by lost_tourist on Sunday November 05, 2023 @03:16PM (#38155185)
I would add that is far better and easier to season, almost as easy to maintain, and much less cantankerous. I use stainless for sauces and such but carbon steel or trust old cast iron is a much better choice for the majority of kitchens. Stainless steel is great for commercial though since it's nearly maintenance free
Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by graypegg on Monday November 06, 2023 @04:33PM (#38169334)
Ton of people here mentioned carbon steel, so I've ordered one :) Will see how it goes! Thanks folks.
Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by tomxor on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:24PM (#38153948)
I switched to stainless last year after getting fed up of going through so many teflon pans, and decided I wanted to stop ingesting teflon flakes (I know PFOA is not technically in the end result and it's supposed to be inert, but I'd rather not ingest it all the same).

Cooking on stainless is not as bad as I expected in terms of sticking, it does require better care over temperature control, but that also seems to have resulted in me cooking better. Also when stuff does get a little stuck or burnt, it comes off without deteriorating the pan unlike non-stick.

Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by Doxin on Monday November 06, 2023 @03:35AM (#38160080)
Honestly my favorite thing about non-nonstick pans is how if something gets stuck you can just dig it out with a metal implement. Turns out things sticking is much less a problem if you can just force a sharp metal spatula under there.
Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by tru3_power on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:31PM (#38154048)
I have great success with stainless steel and butter for non-stick when cooking eggs. Never use Teflon.
Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by arcticbull on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:35PM (#38154091)
Cast iron is fantastic for eggs. After you season it well and use it for a bit it's almost as non-stick as a teflon pan. There's videos of well seasoned pans cooking eggs without oil. You can throw metal utensils at it, and just wipe it down with some oil when you're done. Holds heat well, sears well, goes into the oven. If you're only going to have two pieces of cookware, a stainless stock pot and lodge 10" skillet is all you really need.
Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by InSteady on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:43PM (#38154175)
If you don't mind using a moderately high amount of fat (~1.5 tbsp for 4-5 eggs), stainless is perfectly fine for eggs. If you start with med-high heat be sure to drop it down relatively quickly. Or fry on medium to med-low heat the whole way through. For whatever reason beaten eggs seem to stick even less (basically not at all) so omelets and scrambled eggs are my go-to. I've gotten my technique down so I can flip my omelets with the stainless pan, no spatula required.
Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by graypegg on Sunday November 05, 2023 @02:00PM (#38154391)
I’ll give that a try tomorrow! I normally put scrambled eggs in a cold pan and whisk while heating because either I’m a masochist, like creamy eggs, or both.
Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by hellcow on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:46PM (#38154216)
Carbon steel seasons much effectively and is both lighter and heats more evenly than cast iron (but requires similar maintenance). Well worth a look.
Re:Teflon is still toxic to birds by thumbsup-_- on Sunday November 05, 2023 @02:01PM (#38154398)
Agree. We are 100% on stainless steel and cast iron now for a few years. Teflon is not really needed.