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Re:Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for ... by BurningFrog on Saturday November 04, 2023 @11:21AM (#38141858)
"Jobs" exist because division of labor is an enormous generator of human welfare.

If I have to grow my own food, compose and perform my own music, build my own housing and vehicles, life will be shit.

If we do have division of labor and pay each other for the work, we've reinvented capitalism. If we don't pay each other, the incentives are very strong to be a free-rider.

Re:Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for ... by survirtual on Saturday November 04, 2023 @11:43AM (#38142070)
There are countless models available beyond this black and white, boxed thinking.

The dichotomy presented between capitalism as the byproduct of division of labor and the inevitability of free-riding in its absence paints a rather stark picture. However, this view presumes a rigidity in human motivation and socio-economic structures that simply does not account for the complex tapestry of human innovation.

Life is not relegated to the binary of paying or not paying for services. Consider that human motivation is not solely hinged on material compensation but also on intrinsic rewards—personal growth, satisfaction, and the joy of contributing to something larger than oneself. The potential for human societies to organize around principles that value these intrinsic motivations equally, if not more than the extrinsic, suggests that the welfare generated by division of labor need not be confined within the traditional frameworks of capitalism.

A more nuanced approach considers economies as organic, adaptable, and evolutionary entities that can incorporate diverse motivational drivers, beyond just financial incentives. In such systems, the fear of free-riding is mitigated not by imposing structures but by fostering a culture where communal contribution is as valued as individual success. This shifts the focus from a simplistic labor-for-pay model to a more expansive, dynamic model that embraces a spectrum of motivations and rewards.

Re:Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for ... by BurningFrog on Saturday November 04, 2023 @03:07PM (#38144130)
Did... an AI write this?
Re:Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for ... by pixl97 on Saturday November 04, 2023 @03:39PM (#38144416)
Is it incorrect? Is this the future we are bound to? Anytime someone writes beyond the 5th grade level we accuse the writer of being artificial?
Re:Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for ... by boeingUH60 on Saturday November 04, 2023 @04:50PM (#38144998)
The content truly reads like AI…so bland and full of fluff…worse than a 5th grade level because it takes something that could be stated in one line and stretches it into multiple lines repeating the same idea.
Re:Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for ... by survirtual on Saturday November 04, 2023 @06:35PM (#38145909)
There is a human mind here. I am sorry my thinking and expression does not conform to your expectations.
Re:Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for ... by PaulDavisThe1st on Saturday November 04, 2023 @12:11PM (#38142373)
> If we do have division of labor and pay each other for the work, we've reinvented capitalism

Nope.

Capitalism, at least 21st century western capitalism, consists of 3 things:

1. relatively free markets, in the sense that what can be bought/sold and for how much is only loosely regulated

2. an entrepeneurial culture that supports the idea of "starting a business"

3. the idea that the rewards of any given human venture should go primarily to those who invest capital (rather than, say, labor or IP) in the venture

What you've just described doesn't specifically cover any of these three, and it particularly doesn't cover #3 which is the most pernicious aspect of capitalism (the other two could exist in a system that did not incorporate #3).

Re:Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for ... by Kye on Saturday November 04, 2023 @01:51PM (#38143446)
Capitalism's greatest trick was convincing people markets and capitalism are the same thing.
Re:Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for ... by BurningFrog on Saturday November 04, 2023 @03:06PM (#38144120)
You're arguing about the definition of a word. I don't find that interesting.
Re:Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for ... by PaulDavisThe1st on Saturday November 04, 2023 @05:41PM (#38145448)
"we've reinvented capitalism" .. ok, so i'll substitute "capitalism" with "phrenology". Who cares about the definition? It's just a word, right?

Claiming that A, B & C is the same as D surely needs to imply some concern about the actual meaning of D, no?

Re:Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for ... by BurningFrog on Saturday November 04, 2023 @10:31PM (#38147495)
Words mean different things for different people and in different contexts. That there is only one universally correct meaning is true in Python, but just not how human language works.

Pretty sure what I wrote was understandable for most. You probably also understood it, but felt the need to complain about the vocabulary.

Re:Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for ... by PaulDavisThe1st on Saturday November 04, 2023 @11:36PM (#38147857)
Actually, very much no. I see no connection whatsoever between, on the one hand, division of labor & exchange of labor for money and, on the other hand, capitalism.

The first two may be a necessary precondition for capitalism, but they in no way describe it - they are common elements in human communities that predate capitalism by millenia.

Re:Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for ... by leoqa on Saturday November 04, 2023 @08:35PM (#38146747)
I agree
Re:Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for ... by mikhailfranco on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:09AM (#38148765)
Your (3) contradicts (1). Rewards do not necessarily go to capital.

(1) says rewards are assigned based on supply and demand. If labor is scarce and investment is plentiful, rewards will go to labor. If investment is scarce, and labor is plentiful, rewards will go to capital (with the obvious caveat that there are many other factors that affect returns, and their distribution within the pools of labor and capital).

Unfortunately for western labor, there has been an exploding world population and lower barriers to trade & investment flows (globalization) for the last 40 years - hence a huge glut in labor. Rewards have gone to mobile capital, tech businesses and workers in the developing-world, not so much to blue-collar work in the west. But that is mostly supply & demand, not a built-in rule of capitalism.

Re:Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for ... by PaulDavisThe1st on Sunday November 05, 2023 @07:47PM (#38157461)
I don't agree. If the rewards of a human venture (involving some amount of capital, labor and IP, but almost certainly all 3) do not go to capitalism, then it's not a capitalist venture.

There are certainly other ways of distributing the rewards, no question about that.

So the question arises: why do the rewards go preferentially to capital in so many of the ventures that exist in our system? Your argument claims that it reflects the (relatively) low supply of capital (compared to the (relatively) plentiful supply of labor; we'll ignore IP for now).

By contrast, I claim that it doesn't reflect that primarily, but is instead deliberate economic/political/legal choice made under significant influence by capital, and that's why we call it "capitalism".

If we lived in a world, for whatever reason, the rewards of a human venture went primarily to labor, we can still recognize that there's a "system" distributing the rewards, but we would not call that "capitalism".

So I'd partially agree with your argument but then invert it: an important reason why the rewards go to capital - i.e. we live in a capitalist society - is that there's sufficiently little countervailing pressure on this arrangement. How much this comes from population numbers, lack of political will, schemeing by the rich etc. is always going to be hard to say. However, a system that didn't work the way ours does would not be capitalism.

Re:Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for ... by mikhailfranco on Monday November 06, 2023 @10:12AM (#38163657)
So you don't think there is a market for labor? You don't think that wages, benefits and workplace conditions (heath & safety), have any effect on where people work? Do you think there are fixed wages for certain categories of jobs, like some soviet economy? Do you think that most jobs are long-term-fixed contracts at some low penalty rate, like indentured servitude? Do you think there are still company towns where people have to work for a monopsonist employer at their terms? Do you think that people can move location?

Wage-based employment is certainly an economy. It is affected by laws, taxes, regulations, wage transparency, negotiating power, unionization, social welfare benefits, etc. But in the western world, it is approximately a market, and wages are affected by the supply of labor (with skills/without; with education/without; with an artisan skill/or not; prepared to do dull, repetitive, smelly, disgusting job/or not).

How is labor not a market?

And do you know workers with profit sharing, or performance-related bonuses, or share options? Well they are essentially capitalists in their own employer, with some (small, perhaps insignificant) share of the returns to the business.

Do you know anyone who is self-employed? They are solo capitalists, self-started, owners of their shop or tools, and a capitalist of one.

Do you have a pension that owns equities? You are also a capitalist.

You may hate your manager, or envy them, because they earn more than you, and get to boss people around. They are not capitalists. Managers are not capitalists, don't confuse your hatreds. They are only capitalists to the extent that they also get share ownerships and options. Choose your targets carefully, and be explicit in your class-warfare hatreds.

Re:Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for ... by PaulDavisThe1st on Tuesday November 07, 2023 @10:21AM (#38177794)
As I outlined, markets != capitalism. It seems you've wandered far away from my whole point. Free markets, entrepeneurialism are a part of contemporary US capitalism, but they can also exist in systems that are not capitalist.

For a system to be capitalist, it requires additional features, and the most significant of these is the way the rewards of human ventures are distributed (i.e. primarily towards those who invest capital rather than labor or IP in the venture).

Re:Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for ... by mikhailfranco on Wednesday November 08, 2023 @09:52AM (#38191155)
You can define capitalism however you like, but nobody can define away the thriving labor market that obviously exists in the western world - even with all the distortions and regulations. The labor market affects how rewards are shared between capital and labor. Nobody has to agree with your unique and special definition.
Re:Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for ... by monadINtop on Saturday November 04, 2023 @12:32PM (#38142575)
>If we do have division of labor and pay each other for the work, we've reinvented capitalism.

This is extremely wrong. Every society in human history has some degree of division of labour. Capitalism is a specific economic mode of production that emerged from the embers of Feudalism a few hundred years ago, as merchant guilds and private manufacturors in urban centres gradually grew more independent whilst the noble classes who had subsisted off the labour of an agricultural underclass had gradually lost power. The exact process and reasons for this is extremely complicated and vast in scope.

There is also an unimaginably vast spectrum of potential ways of organising economic production in a human society, and many civilisations historically have exhibited different iterations of these. To make the claim that it is impossible to devise a system different from where

>we don't pay each other,[and] the incentives are very strong to be a free-rider

is not only to ignore not an entire field of historical and anthropolgical research, but also to not even bother to imagine any alternative to very particular unique economic system we happen to find ourselves in this current and infinitesimally narrow slice of time.

Re:Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for ... by nradov on Saturday November 04, 2023 @02:07PM (#38143609)
What exactly is the alternative which has ever been proven to work at scale? As long as we have private property which people are allowed to buy and sell then capitalism is the only possible result. The fact that some primitive tribes managed to eke out a basic existence for a while with a gift economy or whatever isn't a valid counterargument.
Re:Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for ... by monadINtop on Saturday November 04, 2023 @06:57PM (#38146088)
What are you talking about? Private property refers to the ownership of the organs of economic production - factories, steal mills, whatever - by private institutions (e.g shareholder-managed organisations). If your referring to markets in general, they have existed since the dawn of urban human civilisation, thousands of years before capitalism. Markets can even exist in the most despotic communist dictatorship, or decentralized anarchist collective. Buying and selling goods or having personal property is largely orthogonal to the mode of production employed by a given society.

Right now in spain, the largest buisness group in basque (10th largest overall) is the Mondragon corporation. It’s worker-owned (but not worker managed), although each worker has voting rights. Clearly it is possible - even within capialism - to have some worker autonomy over production.

In 1936, during the civil war in Spain, around 60-75% of urban industry and agriculture was restructured by anarchist labour unions and run and managed by the workers to varying degrees of collectivization. Some towns abandoned the use of fiat currency entirely and instead used systems of vouchers, in small villages goods where distributed even more informally. Industrial production is reported to have increased during this time, and agricultural yields rose by around 30%.

Re:Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for ... by nradov on Sunday November 05, 2023 @08:04PM (#38157582)
And all of that basically failed or at least never expanded. It is not a scalable economic model that can work in large societies.
Re:Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for ... by monadINtop on Thursday November 09, 2023 @04:07PM (#38211317)
>failed

How? There was no economic failure. It ended due to a political coup. After all there was the slight external complication of a proxy war considered by many to be a prelude to the defining conflict of the 20th century.

>never expanded

Apart from across an entire country you mean?