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Re:Jevons Paradox by CalRobert on Friday November 03, 2023 @12:04PM (#38130737)
As much as I was glad to see lighting become more efficient, as someone who enjoys seeing the night sky I was worried what the impact of virtually free lighting would be. And indeed, at least in rural Ireland the proliferation of extremely bright uplights which are on all night has not been great for seeing the milky way.

Similarly, I worry that if we ever _do_ get fully self-driving EV's it will only serve to make it comfortable to commute from, say, Yosemite to Mountain View - and who wouldn't want that? Yet I rarely see increased congestion come up in discussions about FSD.

Re:Jevons Paradox by borissk on Friday November 03, 2023 @01:02PM (#38131631)
Interesting question.

Beijing has huge problems with traffic jams and the CCP has has taken some extreme measures to limit the number of cars there. E.g. they practically don't issue registration numbers for ICE vehicles and there's a queue for EV registration numbers, that currently goes to 2035 (if you join the queue now you'll get a reg number in 2035).

Some cities with heavy traffic in Europe and China have implemented rules, like only cars with even registration numbers are allowed to drive on Mondays.

Re:Jevons Paradox by et-al on Friday November 03, 2023 @03:26PM (#38133821)
In Beijing, the wealthy folks get around this rule by owning two cars.
Re:Jevons Paradox by NeoTar on Friday November 03, 2023 @03:59PM (#38134197)
When this was applied in some European city (Paris?) there was a joke - "The rich got around this by using two cars. The poor got around it by using two number-plates".
Re:Jevons Paradox by Sharlin on Friday November 03, 2023 @01:04PM (#38131656)
Lighting is simply something that must be regulated, just like everything else that has negative externalities. It’s not that different from noise or other kinds of pollution.
Re:Jevons Paradox by CalRobert on Friday November 03, 2023 @01:57PM (#38132475)
Certainly, though you'd get laughed at complaining to an Irish council about lighting. Other places are better.
Re:Jevons Paradox by Sharlin on Friday November 03, 2023 @02:13PM (#38132674)
Yeah, it’s definitely something that’s only now starting to get recognized as a potential problem.
Re:Jevons Paradox by hotnfresh on Friday November 03, 2023 @01:27PM (#38132029)
Secondary effects from widespread automobile ownership already removed most of its benefit for most people (typically they're net-negative, in fact) for day-to-day activities. Full self-driving would at least put normal people on similar footing to the few who still gain significant advantage from cars (mostly people who can pay someone else to drive them everywhere). Buuuuut you're right that total time in cars might increase, making things overall worse—you're not exactly free to do anything when you're in a car, even as a passenger.

("Seems impossible, how's that work?" take commuting time and time worked to pay for car, insurance, fuel, and maintenance. Compare worked-time it takes to pay for equivalents on a bicycle, plus bicycle commute time if you removed all the space you drive past that exists only or mainly because of cars [which is... a whole lot when you start analyzing it]. Do same for e.g. the grocery store and other places you regularly visit. You'll probably find that most people in your city—including, perhaps, you—must be losing time to their car, and likely a lot of it, when the point was to get places faster, i.e. to save time. Cars in an environment where lots of people own cars end up being beneficial mainly for the disabled and people who don't have to drive themselves, so can partially reclaim that time for other activities, i.e. the rich. The analysis just gets more lopsided the more complete you try to make it—added healthcare costs, more dedicated time spent exercising to make up for inactivity due to cars, infrastructure costs, et c, there's a lot more time and money that can plausibly be put under the "cost of widespread car ownership" column. And yes, I stole this analysis from Illich—I ran the numbers because it seemed crazy, but he's totally right)

Re:Jevons Paradox by fragmede on Friday November 03, 2023 @04:40PM (#38134706)
> you're not exactly free to do anything when you're in a car, even as a passenger.

Sure, not anything but if I can be a passenger in the back seat with a driver that's not going to crash, so I don't need to be a second set of eyes for them, or stay awake to help keep them awake, and I can watch a movie or code on my laptop with tethering to my phone, or just take a nap, I could probably put up with a multi-hour commute and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Re:Jevons Paradox by api on Friday November 03, 2023 @04:01PM (#38134232)
Along similar lines I've been predicting that AI is going to increase demand for knowledge work.

It may decrease demand for certain types of knowledge work, but the overall volume will increase.

Re:Jevons Paradox by sorokod on Friday November 03, 2023 @04:38PM (#38134684)
Yet I rarely see increased congestion come up in discussions about FSD

It is very simple, companies invested in EV, FSD, etc... are doing so to make a profit of EV, FSD and etc.

How those affect humanity is not their concern.