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Re:Tao Te Ching – Gia-Fu Feng, Jane English Translation (1989) by palad1n on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @11:22PM (#38094276)
I remember reading Stephen Mitchell's version waaaay back in 1991, when I was still young and impressionable. There was one line that really blew me away in his translation, and I might be remembering it slightly incorrectly: "The Tao is older than God".
Re:Tao Te Ching – Gia-Fu Feng, Jane English Translation (1989) by vitiral on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @11:34PM (#38094327)
https://terebess.hu/english/tao/mitchell.html

4

The Tao is like a well: used but never used up. It is like the eternal void: filled with infinite possibilities.

It is hidden but always present. I don't know who gave birth to it. It is older than God.

My favorite, although my favorite depends on the season

9 Fill your bowl to the brim and it will spill. Keep sharpening your knife and it will blunt. Chase after money and security and your heart will never unclench. Care about people's approval and you will be their prisoner.

Do your work, then step back. The only path to serenity.

Re:Tao Te Ching – Gia-Fu Feng, Jane English Translation (1989) by Jach on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @12:07AM (#38094507)
9 is my favorite, too.
Re:Tao Te Ching – Gia-Fu Feng, Jane English Translation (1989) by Podgajski on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @06:34AM (#38096579)
9 strikes a dagger into the heart of capitalism.
Re:Tao Te Ching – Gia-Fu Feng, Jane English Translation (1989) by Jach on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @07:58AM (#38097123)
Not really
Re:Tao Te Ching – Gia-Fu Feng, Jane English Translation (1989) by Podgajski on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @09:28AM (#38097900)
Re:Tao Te Ching – Gia-Fu Feng, Jane English Translation (1989) by Jach on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @10:13AM (#38098437)
Not really, that chapter is more about irresponsible nobles. Starving the farmers and consequently others is rather characteristic of communism, I would say. A better chapter to make your point would be chapter 80. But if all one tries to use the tao te ching for is scoring points for or against some ism, a large point has been missed.
Re:Tao Te Ching – Gia-Fu Feng, Jane English Translation (1989) by the_other on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @11:23AM (#38099488)
> Starving the farmers and consequently others is rather characteristic of communism,

You're confusing communism with dictatorship. Communism is about communal ownership, and likely some version of worker-ownership ("own the means of production"). If the system, or its leaders, are starving the farmers, and the farmers and their customers can't actively negotiate against that practice, you don't have communism at all.

Re:Tao Te Ching – Gia-Fu Feng, Jane English Translation (1989) by Podgajski on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @12:44PM (#38100968)
Dao-ism is the only ism I see. It’s not about scoring points, it is trying to live in accord with the Dao.

80? That is about government!

What about 19??

Give up ingenuity, renounce profit, And bandits and thieves will disappear.

29?

Do you think you can take over the universe and improve it? I do not believe it can be done.

66?

Because he does not compete, He does not meet competition.

Re:Tao Te Ching – Gia-Fu Feng, Jane English Translation (1989) by stillconfused on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @02:11AM (#38095107)
Here is Red Pine's translation of both, in case you are interested. He spent ~20 years including substantial time in monasteries studying Chinese classics. His translation is much more tightly linked to the actual work.

4:

  The Tao is so empty
  those who use it
  never become full again
  and so deep
  as if were the ancestor of us all
  it dulls our edges
  unties our tangles
  softens our light
  and merges our dust
  it's so clear
  as if it were present
  I wonder whose child it is
  it seems it was here before Ti
9:

  Instead of pouring in more
  better stop while you can
  making it sharper
  won't help it last longer
  rooms full of treasure
  can never be safe
  the vanity of success
  invites its own failure
  when your work is done retire
  this is the Way of Heaven


Notice how different, in particular, 4. The text reads much, much closer to Red Pine's translation. The 4th line literally reads "deep !", but that word is nowhere to be found in Mitchell's translation.

I strongly recommend Red Pine!

Re:Tao Te Ching – Gia-Fu Feng, Jane English Translation (1989) by vitiral on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @08:39AM (#38097414)
Are there two versions in the same translation? You gave two versions to number 9 in this very post!
Re:Tao Te Ching – Gia-Fu Feng, Jane English Translation (1989) by stillconfused on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @11:54PM (#38108816)
Hi- Those are the same translation (Red Pine's) of the two sections from Mitchell that you quoted, 4 and 9. They are quite different than Mitchell, and correspond about as closely as one can to the text (given assumptions on punctuation; Classical Chinese was not punctuated).

To give a bit more detail of the first one, 4:

Mitchell 4a: The Tao is like a well: used but never used up. It is like the eternal void: filled with infinite possibilities.

  1. The original text does not mention a well.
  2. those who use it are not full, not the Tao not used up.
  3. there is no mention of eternal voids just a lack of fullness for users.
  4. there is no mention of infinite impossibilities, but it is possible "as it were the ancestor of us all" is mistranslated by Mitchell where "all" wan wu (literally 10,000 things) is translated as infinite, and the ancestor part is dropped.
Mitchel 4b: <blank>

  It appears Mitchell skips the middle part of the section, which discusses dulled edges, tangles, light, and dust.

Mitchell 4c: It is hidden but always present. I don't know who gave birth to it. It is older than God.

  1. The first half is clear / as if it were present, not hidden.
  The rest is reasonable.

By all means if you found something in Mitchell, enjoy, but he's taken many liberties while translated a language he did not understand, and so it doesn't match the original text as well as other alternatives.
Re:Tao Te Ching – Gia-Fu Feng, Jane English Translation (1989) by gizajob on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @08:53AM (#38097552)
It seems like his is a much more zen-infused translation, which given his other work isn’t surprising. It’s great to have so many takes on the translation though, I’ll be appreciating this text for the rest of my life. Already have been for a good 15 years already, and whoever old Lao Tze was, they were likely one of the greatest geniuses in history.
Re:Tao Te Ching – Gia-Fu Feng, Jane English Translation (1989) by imchillyb on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @08:10AM (#38097205)
It’s almost as if they’re saying: “Vanity of vanities, all is vanity and grasping of the wind… “There is nothing better for a person than that he should eat and drink and find enjoyment in his toil. This also, I saw, is from the hand of God,” -‭‭Ecclesiastes‬
Re:Tao Te Ching – Gia-Fu Feng, Jane English Translation (1989) by vitiral on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @08:29AM (#38097348)
IIUC much of the bible's "wisdom" is taken from older root traditions. According to Mitchell's (the same Mitchell, he IS an expert in ancient Hebrew) translation of Job the entire book isn't even about a Jew but is far older.
Re:Tao Te Ching – Gia-Fu Feng, Jane English Translation (1989) by imchillyb on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @08:53AM (#38097555)
Ecclesiastes was written by King Solomon, King David's son.

The wisdom of Solomon was so great, the Queen of Bathsheeba made a year-long journey just to hear him.

The time of Solomon, and his accomplishments, are not taken from older traditions but from the man himself.

Perhaps read some for yourself. The Bible doesn't indoctrinate people do that. The Bible has so much wisdom and knowledge packed within its pages I'm not sure why people are so reticent to peruse or even read through it.

The Bible doesn't bite, but it certainly does cut to the quick.

Re:Tao Te Ching – Gia-Fu Feng, Jane English Translation (1989) by throwaway626 on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @09:17AM (#38097794)
Qohelet was most likely compiled by multiple authors well after the Babylonian conquest. The presence of loanwords in the text makes a date in the 10th century BCE highly unlikely.

Solomon the Biblical personage probably never existed. No archaeological evidence, as far as I’m aware, has been found.

Re:Tao Te Ching – Gia-Fu Feng, Jane English Translation (1989) by datadrivenangel on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @11:35PM (#38094342)
It's not perfect, but Stephen Mitchell's translation of the Tao is wonderful. A wrong translation being perfect is the eternal Tao.
Re:Tao Te Ching – Gia-Fu Feng, Jane English Translation (1989) by OfSanguineFire on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @12:07AM (#38094506)
Stephen Mitchell has no real training in Old Chinese.[0] His “translation” is simply repackaging or distorting what was found in earlier, informed translations, for the sake of a publishing industry keen to cash in on “wisdom lit”. He is an analogue of Coleman Barks the Rumi “translator” who doesn’t know Persian, and Brooks Haxton the Heraclitus “translator” without a background in Greek.

[0] https://academic.oup.com/litthe/article-abstract/34/4/486/60...

Re:Tao Te Ching – Gia-Fu Feng, Jane English Translation (1989) by palad1n on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @02:18AM (#38095140)
Wow, I had no idea. Like I said, that was so long ago. Interesting the notes in the abstract of that paper, that he infused Christian and Buddhist ideas. It might be why I took to it so well.
Re:Tao Te Ching – Gia-Fu Feng, Jane English Translation (1989) by vitiral on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @08:25AM (#38097313)
He has translated many works from other ancient languages and is a trained Zen monk. In the spirit of Taoism he is likely a better translator than an intellectual.

The work is brief. There is room for multiple translations and interpretations.

Re:Tao Te Ching – Gia-Fu Feng, Jane English Translation (1989) by OfSanguineFire on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @08:48AM (#38097510)
> He has translated many works from other ancient languages

Not really. Most of his other "translations" from ancient languages were made the same way as with the Tao te ching: he simply rewrote existing translations. As far as I can tell, the Book of Job translation is the only one made from the source text. I don’t think you understand how notorious Mitchell has been within the field of literary translation for decades now.

> is a trained Zen monk.

Zen and Taoism are different philosophical systems. As the linked paper underlines, choosing someone with a background in Zen to translate that foundational work of Taoism, was peculiar, but it is understandable within the context of a Western publishing market that wants to cash in on wisdom lit and doesn’t really care about the details of Asian religions.

> There is room for multiple translations and interpretations.

Attention is finite and marketing is dishonest. There are myriads of people out there for whom the Mitchell Tao te ching is the only one they will be exposed to, and they won’t even be aware that it isn’t a real translation and they will need to consult other translations in order to make up for that.

Re:Tao Te Ching – Gia-Fu Feng, Jane English Translation (1989) by vitiral on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @02:22PM (#38102597)
> Zen and Taoism are different philosophical systems.

My understanding (and some points in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chan_Buddhism echo it) is that Chan/Zen Buddhism is a descendant of Mahāyāna Buddhism and Taoism. In that way, it is itself a Taoist religion.

> Most of his other "translations" from ancient languages were made the same way as with the Tao te ching

This is incorrect for any Ancient Hebrew or Greek works. Genesis is listed as "translated". On the Psalms he says:

  I have translated fairly closely where that has been possible; but I have also paraphrased, expanded, contracted, deleted, shuffled the order of verses, and freely improvised on the themes of the originals.
And then there's "Gospel According to Jesus", also listed as a translation.

From Googling "does stephen mitchell know ancient greek"

  Some of his translations aren't, strictly speaking, translations, but adaptations. He knows Greek, Latin, Hebrew, French, German, Italian and Danish, but he's also rewritten works in languages he doesn't know—Chinese, Sanskrit and Babylonian.
Re:Tao Te Ching – Gia-Fu Feng, Jane English Translation (1989) by mnk47 on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @10:17PM (#38108168)
> My understanding (and some points in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chan_Buddhism echo it) is that Chan/Zen Buddhism is a descendant of Mahāyāna Buddhism and Taoism. In that way, it is itself a Taoist religion.

It is still problematic, for the same reason that a translation of Christian work by a Muslim or a Mormon with no background in Christianity, in a language they're not familiar with, would raise eyebrows.

Re:Tao Te Ching – Gia-Fu Feng, Jane English Translation (1989) by vitiral on Friday November 03, 2023 @09:53AM (#38128772)
It feels less problematic than those cases due to those religion's own views on truth and divine prophecy. Christianity largely views Muslim/Mormon views as a kind of Heresy. Toaism/Buddhism don't really map to this kind of thinking IIUC.

I would also counter that a Muslim or Mormon's view of the Bible would probably be very useful, if for no other reason that they would have a alternative but still reverent lens on it; vs an intellectual's which contains little or no reverence. I found a Jew's (Stephen Mitchel's) translation of Jesus's writings to be very enlightening indeed!

Re:Tao Te Ching – Gia-Fu Feng, Jane English Translation (1989) by nimbleal on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @05:29AM (#38096171)
I think the line you’re referring to is 象帝之先. I haven’t studied ancient Chinese (speak modern mandarin) but that would approximate to:

象 has the appearance of/seems to

帝 the Di, the highest or supreme deity/Zeus like king-of-the-gods

之先 A (the Dao) comes (typically chronologically or in terms of precedence) prior to B (The Di)

I think there may be an analogy to neo Platonic emanations (including as imagined by Christian thinkers ) in Western thought where the One or ground of Being comes logically prior to the gods/angels/spiritual powers etc.