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Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by jsight on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @04:33PM (#38090977)
The problem isn't just realtors, it is that the whole system is designed to maximize transaction costs. Who cares how much the attorney and loan paperwork cost when they are only 1-2%, you are already paying 5-6% to realtors, ~.5-1% in repair costs, and often a part of the buyer's closing costs too?

But if you think about that wholistically, that means sellers are paying 8-10% of the cost of a house every time they sell!

Surely that means someone could cut the cost in half and make a much more attractive platform, right? Opendoor comes kind of close, but they end up shouldering a lot of the risk of the transaction and therefore tend to lowball.

Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by notaustinpowers on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @04:44PM (#38091116)
A huge hurdle with trying to cut costs is because of NAR themselves, and local Realtor Associations. Any Realtor is with NAR and a local Association, which heavily restricts what they can do. Not being in a local Association can remove your access to the MLS, reducing your visibility to other agents, and remove your access to the state-specific legal forms.

Add in closing attorneys and home inspectors being brought in-house to reduce costs, it can be a very expensive start-up cost that would require lots of capital to achieve. Zillow/Opendoor got REALLY close, but they stopped (Zillow) or, like you said, lowball offers because they're fronting all of the backend costs that used to be spread across 4 or 5 different services.

Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by jsight on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @04:50PM (#38091189)
Good points. I totally forgot about the whole home inspection process and how ridiculous it tends to be. Even when they aren't in house, you know it will be someone that the realtor has worked with before. It will certainly catch things because it has to demonstrate its value, and those things will be worth at least hundreds of $$s. Unfortunately, it will also offer no real guarantee that those things were worth catching or that other things weren't missed.

You are right, a party trying to fix this will need great funding, large scale, and they can't be someone that will just sell out (ala zillow). With the NAR's ability to block out parties that they don't like, it might not even be practically possible.

Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by tylergetsay on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @04:54PM (#38091234)
Not only everything you mentioned above -- the associations control access to the homes themselves
Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by notaustinpowers on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @05:10PM (#38091416)
Yup! Forgot to mention that. In my area, you have to be a member of the local Association & NAR to access the lockboxes.
Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by conductr on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @05:22PM (#38091556)
My problem has always been with the percentages used on certain things; like commissions. Just make it a flat fee. Things that require agent's time like open houses; bill for that. It's the essentially the same effort on a $100K house and a $500K house and a $1M house. Maybe once you get to $5M+ houses the fees need to increase since this is a different class of RE with much smaller pool of buyers. But still should be fixed amount and not percentages.

In my area, since I bought my first house 10 years ago house prices have 4X'd. I don't think the wages of most professions have, the demand for housing makes it easier to sell, so why should agents be making 4X more?

Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by salamanderss on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @06:25PM (#38092250)
Yeah it also causes the problem of making it a real pain in the ass to buy cheaper plots of land. Realtor often don't give a flying fuck about the sale of stuff under 50k, not worth it for them. Can be hard to get representation.
Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by semiquaver on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @07:24PM (#38092715)
Is there anything else in real estate that’s normally priced in terms of percentages other than the realtor cut? I’m not aware of any.
Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by lttlrck on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @07:33PM (#38092773)
Property tax.
Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by deelowe on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @01:00AM (#38094743)
Everything is negotiable, but sellers often get asked to pay some portion of closing costs.
Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by sizzle on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @05:02AM (#38095998)
This was the business model for PurpleBricks that exited the US market after failing to disrupt the Realtor mafia in control.
Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by firstplacelast on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @08:50AM (#38097520)
Maybe we should all learn from real estate agents and price our labor at a % of the median home price within 1 hour commute to our offices?

While I do think RE agents are overpaid in expensive markets, I also kind of think...good for them. Pegging your wages to your most expensive living cost is a supremely intelligent move.

Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by Willish42 on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @05:32PM (#38091680)
Dumb, uninformed question here, but are there not some sort of For Sale By Owner systems that cut into the huge percents in closing costs? Or is the issue that you have to pay the buyers' realtor fees too and that's unavoidable?

I'm trying to figure out why nobody's figured out "DIY MLS listing as a service without having to pay for a realtor". Maybe everyone who does this just gets a realtor's license or something.

Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by 404mm on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @05:45PM (#38091839)
I’m not a realtor but I considered selling my home myself once. Two issues I hit immediately:

1. I could not list the home in MLS as That system requires annual fees to use and you need to have a realtor license.

2. You still need to pay the purchasing side’s realtor otherwise they will simply not consider your home for their clients. That’s 3% that’s hard to get any lower.

I ended up negotiating my realtor’s selling fee down to 1.5% with the promise of using them for my purchase as well.

Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by macNchz on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @05:54PM (#38091939)
> 1. I could not list the home in MLS as That system requires annual fees to use and you need to have a realtor license.

Additionally, if you were to decide to list "For Sale by Owner" and market it yourself, you can submit it to the major aggregators (Zillow et al), but their contracts with the MLS systems often disallow them from mixing MLS and FSBO listings in the same search result set, so the FSBO listings are hidden behind a toggle or something and go unseen by the great majority of people browsing.

Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by pb7 on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @07:19PM (#38092682)
Further blatant abuse of their monopoly.
Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by justinclift on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @05:53AM (#38096324)
Hmmm, sounds like a cartel that could be ripe for a bit of legal action. ;)
Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by Willish42 on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @09:17PM (#38093483)
aha, so THIS must be the real reason people like Redfin can make money off of giving you a "digital realtor" rather than FSBO uploads alongside the MLS listings. Makes sense, monopoly / oligopoly working as intended. I knew there had to be a reason :/

Thanks for your reply

Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by photonbeam on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @09:38PM (#38093639)
That seems like something the government should stop
Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by cgh on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @05:55PM (#38091951)
It's true that there's scope for an alternate MLS that's just for sale by owner listings. But as someone else mentioned, the buyer often uses an agent (I refuse to use the made-up word "realtor") and you'll have to pay that fee anyway. Unless, that is, your listings site provided handholding to do away with the buying agent. To handle the paperwork, a notary and/or a lawyer is necessary but the site could either provide those services for cheap or detailed instructions on how to proceed if you want to use your own notary/lawyer. It's simple enough. It turns out that the main function of a real estate agent is to simply ferry paperwork back and forth between the clients and the lawyers. You can just as easily do this yourself (we did and saved a lot).
Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by lelanthran on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @03:29AM (#38095485)
> It's true that there's scope for an alternate MLS that's just for sale by owner listings. But as someone else mentioned, the buyer often uses an agent (I refuse to use the made-up word "realtor") and you'll have to pay that fee anyway.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding how this works.

With (often) the seller holding a lot of the cards, they could simply insist that any buyer pay their own agent, or buy elsewhere.

If the demand is even minimally high it wouldn't take a lot of sellers to cause people looking to buy to avoid signing on with an agent just to find a house.

Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by jsight on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @10:47PM (#38094042)
A lot of buyer's agents fastidiously avoid FSBO properties.
Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by wanderingstan on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @10:58PM (#38094118)
The first home I bought was FSBO—but I only found it because it was across the street from an agent-listed house!
Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by leephillips on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @11:11PM (#38094214)
I sold a townhouse in DC using a company that listed in the MLS for a flat fee (I think it was about $200). I held my own open house and got my target price from a buyer I met there. He did have an agent but I told them I wasn’t paying any commission. The agent thought I didn’t know what I was doing and tried to sneak a commission onto the sales contract. Typical real estate agent behavior. (I had sold and bought a few houses before, using agents, so I was familiar with the process, and aware that the agents added no value.)
Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by nwellinghoff on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @12:21AM (#38094569)
By what method did he try to sneak a commission in? What it something obscure that you have to know to look for or?
Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by leephillips on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @01:27AM (#38094890)
She just put it right there in the contract, despite our verbal agreement that it would not be there. When I objected she made a show of having made a “mistake”. Quite crude, in fact.
Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by fshbbdssbbgdd on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @02:28AM (#38095179)
It’s surprising to me that the buyer’s agent would even consent to produce a contract that doesn’t pay them any fee.
Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by bentt on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @10:31AM (#38098674)
It's almost entirely because entrenched interests (realtors, NAR) sabotage those efforts. The market has never had a chance to support any other approaches.
Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by OJFord on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @05:39PM (#38091764)
The problem is 'buying agents'. Looks totally bonkers from over here (UK, I think it's foreign to at least most of Europe too).
Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by aeternum on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @05:52PM (#38091921)
Yes, this is where the collusion comes in. Many seller agents will simply ignore buyers without a buying agent.
Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by lloyddobbler on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @06:02PM (#38092037)
In the U.S., at least, I've never known a seller's agent to do that (having done a good number of real estate transactions). In fact, in my experience I find it to be the exact opposite. Seller's agents are incentivized to not work with buyer's agents, if the situation arises where they're approached directly by a buyer.

If the seller's agent is comfortable acting as the intermediary, and recognizing the limits of conflict of interest, then it's in their best interest to keep all of the 6% commission instead of giving half of it to the buyer's agent.

Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by fatnoah on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @07:18PM (#38092677)
Correct, and this is something I've used to my advantage before. It's not a huge one, but when all othet things are equal...
Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by tetromino_ on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @03:54PM (#38103983)
When looking for a place in New York, we were straight up ignored by most sellers until we signed a contract with a buyer's agent. Apparently, people without an agent are perceived as window shoppers / tire kickers who are not serious about buying and whose presence wastes everyone's time. A buyer's agent signals that you have serious intentions.

Your area might be different, of course.

Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by lloyddobbler on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @04:36PM (#38104768)
Interesting. Yeah, in Los Angeles, Denver, and Atlanta, it’s always worked to my advantage as the buyer. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by kelnos on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @06:23PM (#38092239)
Yep. And a lot of it is of dubious value; I think for many (most?) properties, title insurance is a scam. Most houses, especially those built (or at least having changed hands) in the last, oh, 50 years (or more?) should be fine.

It also just seems kinda dumb that realtors get paid a percentage rather than a flat fee. On the buyer side, it's essentially the same amount of work to help someone find and buy a $200k house as it is for a $1M house. For the two properties I've purchased, things moved so quickly that I don't think the realtors had to do all that much. Conservatively, the first one made at least $2k/hr, and the second at least $1k/hr (and I'm probably underestimating there). I'm not saying their services weren't valuable -- they certainly were -- but I can't see most people agreeing to pay that rate if it were presented to them that way.

And I'm not convinced there's all that much of a difference on the seller side, either. The staging is going to cost more for a larger/nicer house, but the sellers are paying separately for the staging anyway. I was also reading somewhere recently that orgs that control access to the MLS will not even allow you to list if there's no buyer's realtor's commission, and there's a floor, like it has to be at least 2% or something.

From the buyer's perspective, I really liked Redfin's pre-pandemic model, where they'd give you part of the buyer's commission as a "refund", because their realtors are salaried. I assume they figure out from the traditional commission how much they need in order to pay their own operating costs (plus whatever profit margin they've decided to take), and then give you the rest. Of course, they stopped doing that during the pandemic, and now pocket the entire buyer's commission.

Granted, the realtors we've worked with through Redfin were hit-or-miss. One we worked with was fantastic and knowledgeable, and helped a ton, but another (in a different region) let us put an offer on a home that we wouldn't have been able to rent out legally in the way we wanted to, which is something she absolutely should have known (a non-realtor friend alerted us to the issue; fortunately we were able to rescind the offer before it was acted upon). I haven't listed anything on Redfin as a seller, but they charge 1% of the sale price, which is a lot better than the 2.5%-3% traditional realtors take. Still, the percentage model seems unnecessary there too; the amount of work needed to sell houses of different values shouldn't necessarily be directly linked to the eventual sale price.

> But if you think about that wholistically, that means sellers are paying 8-10% of the cost of a house every time they sell!

I can only assume this also is part of our housing affordability issues. Sellers need to see some minimum amount of appreciation (and a fairly large amount at that) in order to break even (without even taking inflation into account), so homes sell for higher than they would otherwise, especially in markets where sellers have the upper hand.

Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by frumper on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @06:34PM (#38092313)
Title insurance is often required by the lender. If I loan you a boatload of money, I want to make sure there isn't any funny business about who owns what when you buy that the borrowed money. If there is funny business, that why I want you to have bought the insurance. Seems as reasonable as home owners insurance on a mortgaged property.
Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by pxx on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @07:14PM (#38092645)
Lenders could internalize this risk, which is miniscule. But mortgages in the United States are a subsidized product. The real problem is that the lender wants to sell the note to Fannie/Freddie, who require title insurance.

Title insurance is a total scam. Title insurers pay 3-6% of their premiums in claims [0]. Compare to auto insurance, which is ~80% [1], or home insurance (~50-70%) [2].

[0] https://www.ceicdata.com/en/united-states/title-insurance-in... [1] https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2023/05/12/72... [2] https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights...

Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by frumper on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @11:49PM (#38094425)
You really haven’t added anything. You’ve just restated that people that own the mortgage want title insurance to protect them. It isn’t for the home owners protection. It’s the same with PMI. That’s another insurance the lender requires a buyer to purchase to protect them.

Title insurance is relatively cheap compared to home or auto insurance. It’s a one time purchase cheaper than the 6 month premium of either of the others.

Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by nrb on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @04:04AM (#38095682)
> You really haven’t added anything.

Are you intentionally glossing over that it could/should cost less than 1 month of premiums of either of the other types of insurance?

Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by frumper on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @09:55AM (#38098221)
They aren't saying it's priced a little too high, they're saying it's a scam. Compared to those other insurances, it's very cheap. Over a 30 year mortgage you'll pay tens of thousands of dollars in home owners insurance. For title insurance you'll pay a few hundred dollars for the average house. For my house, which is close enough to the national average, it was about 2 months worth of home owners premiums.
Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by pxx on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @10:19PM (#38108181)
Title insurance is part of a weird subsidy that is US-unique. The fact that it's part of a weird subsidy means the terms are subject to politics. Fannie/Freddie can easily self-insure against title risk but the political winds are against it, though maybe recent developments will allow them to finally do this [0].

I don't think you've quite understood the idea of looking at loss ratio. On the aggregate, title insurance is incredibly expensive compared to home or auto insurance. These bits of friction add up over an entire market, especially in states where title insurance is fixed by regulation at an extraordinarily high price.

The weirdest thing I've found about title insurance is that people who have purchased it come out of the woodwork to try to convince themselves they weren't scammed. It's not just title insurance salesmen astroturfing; people honestly just never want to admit they were scammed and will somehow fight tooth and nail against cold hard mathematical facts.

On that note, I can also offer you rapture insurance for $10/lifetime! That's cheaper than even a day of your homeowner's insurance and it's a one time purchase! By your logic, this insurance is therefore a good deal and totally not a scam!

[0] https://subscriber.politicopro.com/article/2023/03/fannie-mo...

Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by tootie on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @06:29PM (#38092277)
Paying a percentage to realtors is just theft. They add so little value in my experience. The fact that a fee can be split between two brokers or kept by one just shows they are extracting rents for ambiguous value.