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Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by kelnos on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @06:23PM (#38092239)
Yep. And a lot of it is of dubious value; I think for many (most?) properties, title insurance is a scam. Most houses, especially those built (or at least having changed hands) in the last, oh, 50 years (or more?) should be fine.

It also just seems kinda dumb that realtors get paid a percentage rather than a flat fee. On the buyer side, it's essentially the same amount of work to help someone find and buy a $200k house as it is for a $1M house. For the two properties I've purchased, things moved so quickly that I don't think the realtors had to do all that much. Conservatively, the first one made at least $2k/hr, and the second at least $1k/hr (and I'm probably underestimating there). I'm not saying their services weren't valuable -- they certainly were -- but I can't see most people agreeing to pay that rate if it were presented to them that way.

And I'm not convinced there's all that much of a difference on the seller side, either. The staging is going to cost more for a larger/nicer house, but the sellers are paying separately for the staging anyway. I was also reading somewhere recently that orgs that control access to the MLS will not even allow you to list if there's no buyer's realtor's commission, and there's a floor, like it has to be at least 2% or something.

From the buyer's perspective, I really liked Redfin's pre-pandemic model, where they'd give you part of the buyer's commission as a "refund", because their realtors are salaried. I assume they figure out from the traditional commission how much they need in order to pay their own operating costs (plus whatever profit margin they've decided to take), and then give you the rest. Of course, they stopped doing that during the pandemic, and now pocket the entire buyer's commission.

Granted, the realtors we've worked with through Redfin were hit-or-miss. One we worked with was fantastic and knowledgeable, and helped a ton, but another (in a different region) let us put an offer on a home that we wouldn't have been able to rent out legally in the way we wanted to, which is something she absolutely should have known (a non-realtor friend alerted us to the issue; fortunately we were able to rescind the offer before it was acted upon). I haven't listed anything on Redfin as a seller, but they charge 1% of the sale price, which is a lot better than the 2.5%-3% traditional realtors take. Still, the percentage model seems unnecessary there too; the amount of work needed to sell houses of different values shouldn't necessarily be directly linked to the eventual sale price.

> But if you think about that wholistically, that means sellers are paying 8-10% of the cost of a house every time they sell!

I can only assume this also is part of our housing affordability issues. Sellers need to see some minimum amount of appreciation (and a fairly large amount at that) in order to break even (without even taking inflation into account), so homes sell for higher than they would otherwise, especially in markets where sellers have the upper hand.

Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by frumper on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @06:34PM (#38092313)
Title insurance is often required by the lender. If I loan you a boatload of money, I want to make sure there isn't any funny business about who owns what when you buy that the borrowed money. If there is funny business, that why I want you to have bought the insurance. Seems as reasonable as home owners insurance on a mortgaged property.
Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by pxx on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @07:14PM (#38092645)
Lenders could internalize this risk, which is miniscule. But mortgages in the United States are a subsidized product. The real problem is that the lender wants to sell the note to Fannie/Freddie, who require title insurance.

Title insurance is a total scam. Title insurers pay 3-6% of their premiums in claims [0]. Compare to auto insurance, which is ~80% [1], or home insurance (~50-70%) [2].

[0] https://www.ceicdata.com/en/united-states/title-insurance-in... [1] https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2023/05/12/72... [2] https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights...

Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by frumper on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @11:49PM (#38094425)
You really haven’t added anything. You’ve just restated that people that own the mortgage want title insurance to protect them. It isn’t for the home owners protection. It’s the same with PMI. That’s another insurance the lender requires a buyer to purchase to protect them.

Title insurance is relatively cheap compared to home or auto insurance. It’s a one time purchase cheaper than the 6 month premium of either of the others.

Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by nrb on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @04:04AM (#38095682)
> You really haven’t added anything.

Are you intentionally glossing over that it could/should cost less than 1 month of premiums of either of the other types of insurance?

Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by frumper on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @09:55AM (#38098221)
They aren't saying it's priced a little too high, they're saying it's a scam. Compared to those other insurances, it's very cheap. Over a 30 year mortgage you'll pay tens of thousands of dollars in home owners insurance. For title insurance you'll pay a few hundred dollars for the average house. For my house, which is close enough to the national average, it was about 2 months worth of home owners premiums.
Re:Jury Finds Realtors Conspired, Awards Nearly $1.8B in Dam... by pxx on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @10:19PM (#38108181)
Title insurance is part of a weird subsidy that is US-unique. The fact that it's part of a weird subsidy means the terms are subject to politics. Fannie/Freddie can easily self-insure against title risk but the political winds are against it, though maybe recent developments will allow them to finally do this [0].

I don't think you've quite understood the idea of looking at loss ratio. On the aggregate, title insurance is incredibly expensive compared to home or auto insurance. These bits of friction add up over an entire market, especially in states where title insurance is fixed by regulation at an extraordinarily high price.

The weirdest thing I've found about title insurance is that people who have purchased it come out of the woodwork to try to convince themselves they weren't scammed. It's not just title insurance salesmen astroturfing; people honestly just never want to admit they were scammed and will somehow fight tooth and nail against cold hard mathematical facts.

On that note, I can also offer you rapture insurance for $10/lifetime! That's cheaper than even a day of your homeowner's insurance and it's a one time purchase! By your logic, this insurance is therefore a good deal and totally not a scam!

[0] https://subscriber.politicopro.com/article/2023/03/fannie-mo...