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Re:US-led coalition of nations agrees to end ransomware paym... by nradov on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @12:00PM (#38086898)
We should make it a criminal offense with severe penalties to pay any sort of ransom regardless of the consequences. Use the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act as a model. Even if it means hostages will die or businesses will be destroyed, that is an acceptable price to pay in order to cut off funding to terrorists and other criminals.
Re:US-led coalition of nations agrees to end ransomware paym... by diego_moita on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @12:09PM (#38087052)
> is an acceptable price to pay

It is acceptable for you, since you won't suffer the consequences, the burden of damage isn't on you.

It is similar to consuming drugs: when people buy meth they're helping the drug dealers. But they just can't help it, they're desperate.

Despair is above reason. Laws are useless to stop desperate actions.

Re:US-led coalition of nations agrees to end ransomware paym... by mensetmanusman on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @12:35PM (#38087502)
They are not useless, they bend the curve. Micro harms are everywhere.
Re:US-led coalition of nations agrees to end ransomware paym... by rjbwork on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @12:53PM (#38087804)
>they bend the curve

Upwards. Second order effects of schemes like prohibition are much worse than the original problems.

It's also not quite analogous to the ransomware prohibition, because it's more akin to a prisoner's dilemma, and there's no inherent desire to pay ransomware criminals in the human psyche like there is to alter consciousness.

Re:US-led coalition of nations agrees to end ransomware paym... by edgyquant on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @04:20PM (#38090789)
> Second order effects of schemes like prohibition are much worse than the original problems.

There are loads of countries that have illegalized alcohol and not devolved into levels of organized crime that the US did. Specifically, nearly every Muslim nation on earth. I feel this one example is way overplayed by advocates of legalization

Re:US-led coalition of nations agrees to end ransomware paym... by rjbwork on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @07:26PM (#38092723)
Well, I guess if you think ruin or death is a valid consequence for fairly low stakes "crimes", you can implement pretty much any regime you like, assuming you've got enough boots and knives.
Re:US-led coalition of nations agrees to end ransomware paym... by edgyquant on Thursday November 02, 2023 @10:51AM (#38114279)
Nice changing of the goal post. I accept your concession.
Re:US-led coalition of nations agrees to end ransomware paym... by rjbwork on Friday November 03, 2023 @01:23AM (#38124857)
No goalpost moving. Just hyperbolic mockery of an appeal to Islamic countries for anything to emulate on the front of rights or freedoms.
Re:US-led coalition of nations agrees to end ransomware paym... by nradov on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @12:15PM (#38087150)
We're not talking about desperate drug addicts here. The threat of criminal prosecution and being sent to federal prison is a pretty effective deterrent for most people. Especially the corporate officers who would ultimately have to authorize any ransomware payment. They won't take that risk to help their employer.
Re:US-led coalition of nations agrees to end ransomware paym... by goda90 on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @12:41PM (#38087596)
You just said "hostages will die" in your first comment. Saving human life is a pretty desperate.
Re:US-led coalition of nations agrees to end ransomware paym... by bombcar on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @12:43PM (#38087632)
And in those cases, there will likely be a relative willing to do the illegal step to save their relative.

The only way to actually have a "hostages will die" policy is to ensure you destroy whoever took them, despite the deaths of hostages.

Re:US-led coalition of nations agrees to end ransomware paym... by bee_rider on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @01:33PM (#38088431)
I think ransomware is not really like drugs or hostages.

For drugs, there’s some inherent desire for some people to consume them. Maybe they harm society a bit (in the sense that they might destroy the people that take them), but the main cost for the rest of us is that they fund criminal enterprises because they are illegal. People want drugs, if they could buy them at CVS I suspect they would.

Ransomware is already illegal, we don’t create a new criminal enterprise by making it illegal to do business with them, we just make it harder.

Also, lots go the biggest ransomware gets have been big institutional entities where everything is documented. People just buy drugs in small amounts and consume them, two parties, neither of whom wants to get caught, minimal paper trail. Basically impossible to ban.

For physical hostages—people are desperate to get their friends and family back, and so they’ll go to desperate measures to pay. For ransomware, it is usually an economic decision, nobody’s life is at risk (other than when, like, a hospital is hit). Increasing the cost increases the chance the decision will go the other way. And increases the incentives to keep IT defenses up to date. (I know you didn’t bring up the hostage analogy, I think it is worth noting that the desperation you point to here is really an artifact of the tangent we’re on from the analogy leading us astray).

Re:US-led coalition of nations agrees to end ransomware paym... by miohtama on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @02:20PM (#38089132)
In the case of corporate, it is often not despair but incompetence and lack of consequences: CEO will get their yearly bonus if the ransom is paid. If the ransom is not paid, the information might leak out that the company lacks good cybersecurity practices and there will be a new CEO.

Or even worse, like shareholder or regulator action, see SolarWinds

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38076636

Note that in the EU under GDRP companies are still liable for privacy violations and related fines if ransomware attackers gain access to your personal details, random or no random (a hack is enough).

Re:US-led coalition of nations agrees to end ransomware paym... by varjag on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @12:51PM (#38087779)
Right, everyone's a hardliner until it's your grandson's finger in the envelope.
Re:US-led coalition of nations agrees to end ransomware paym... by Analemma_ on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @12:51PM (#38087781)
Have fun being the DA who presses charges against a mother of three who paid so their kids could see daddy again instead of watching him get beheaded by terrorists.

It's sounds nice in the abstract; in practice it's political suicide.

Re:US-led coalition of nations agrees to end ransomware paym... by sgjohnson on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @04:25PM (#38090862)
> It's sounds nice in the abstract; in practice it's political suicide.

Depends on how you spin it. I suspect it would be quite easy to spin the narrative on this one. "So you knowingly funded a terrorist group that's likely going to use the money to commit further crimes against US citizens?" or something of the sort. Have some experts testify on that too, preferably ones in officers uniform.

Re:US-led coalition of nations agrees to end ransomware paym... by toyg on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @02:24AM (#38095161)
Everyone is a maximalist with other people's loved ones.

Becoming as inhuman as your opponent is not the answer.

Re:US-led coalition of nations agrees to end ransomware paym... by Gibbon1 on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @12:59PM (#38087907)
Yeah what's the point of extorting a company that can't pay. You're just risking getting stuffed in the trunk of a car and driven to some place with an extradition treaty.
Re:US-led coalition of nations agrees to end ransomware paym... by LouisSayers on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @02:44PM (#38089482)
If it's a criminal offence it'll still happen, it just won't be reported.

The gov will pat themselves on the back telling everyone how they've caused a drop in the number of incidents.

Re:US-led coalition of nations agrees to end ransomware paym... by makeitdouble on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @06:00PM (#38092008)
> that is an acceptable price to pay in order to cut off funding to terrorists and other criminals.

You're offering to increase the stick, what's the carrot for the people/corporation losing everything ?

Making the punishment bigger also means victims have stronger incentives to work closely with the terrorists so the whole thing never gets public or never gets labelled as a ransom.