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Re:Police raid mosque in Moscow, forcibly take worshippers t... by brutusborn on Sunday October 22, 2023 @11:39PM (#37981347)
I always find it interesting when people talk about their rights in these contexts. If the government can legally conscript you, surely you don’t have any rights?

As far as I know the US is the only country with enumerated rights for citizens. “Human rights” are discussed in international contexts but don’t seem to have any legal basis on the local level.

Re:Police raid mosque in Moscow, forcibly take worshippers t... by MattGaiser on Monday October 23, 2023 @12:01AM (#37981480)
Canada has enumerated legal rights. Not as strong as American ones, but they are there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Charter_of_Rights_and...

And the USA has legal conscription as well (at least could), even with enumerated rights.

Re:Police raid mosque in Moscow, forcibly take worshippers t... by mathieuh on Monday October 23, 2023 @12:11AM (#37981532)
If some fascist gets to be in charge of the US, can’t they just change the rules, ignore them entirely, or just use the media to change the truth and make people actually support their actions? You almost had this happen in 2021. Let alone any extra-judicial actions that governments take in the name of national security.

I firmly believe that if even any so-called democratic government wants to do something nominally illegal to you they will find a way. Maybe in a so-called democratic country decades later you’ll be exonerated or the perpetrators will be punished but that won’t be much help to you.

Re:Police raid mosque in Moscow, forcibly take worshippers t... by Guy_w_Keyboard on Monday October 23, 2023 @12:44AM (#37981726)
No. That's why we have these things called "separation of power," and "checks and balances."

No single branch of government is all powerful. In fact, it is a testament to the strength of the constitutional republic the founders built, that even with a man like Donald Trump abusing his powers and a media bolstering his lies, ultimately he was forced to step down, and though justice is slow, he is finally seeing justice for his many crimes.

Re:Police raid mosque in Moscow, forcibly take worshippers t... by dartos on Monday October 23, 2023 @01:18AM (#37981900)
The judicial branch is pretty much all powerful.

The Supreme Court rulings can’t be contested except by the Supreme Court.

Re:Police raid mosque in Moscow, forcibly take worshippers t... by bsder on Monday October 23, 2023 @01:35AM (#37981962)
And if the executive branch decides to ignore the ruling, there isn't anything the Supreme Court can do about it.

See: Worcester v. Georgia

This is one of the problems with a Supreme Court that is making rulings that the majority of people don't agree with. If the Supreme Court loses its legitimacy and the other branches simply start ignoring it, it will take a lot of work to get any power back.

Re:Police raid mosque in Moscow, forcibly take worshippers t... by Guy_w_Keyboard on Monday October 23, 2023 @08:53AM (#37984942)
You guys aren't wrong. I believe it was Ben Franklin who famously said, when asked of the new government in the US, what kind it was, he replied, "A republic, if you can keep it." Any democracy is, obviously, only as just or as free as its electorate. As George Carlin pointed out in one of his standups, "If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you're going to get selfish, ignorant leaders. Garbage in, garbage out."

My point is, however, that one man alone cannot be strong enough to bring it all down. There is enough distribution of power for the system to be robust. By irony, the very political tribalism which is ubiquitously hated and lamented by pundits itself creates a sort of political competition; there is very high incentive to hold the other party or incumbent(s) accountable when they abuse their power or make mistakes, as this benefits themselves politically. Of course, the downside to this system, as we've witnessed in recent years, is that both parties are quick to criticize the other side for their sins, but once in power they commit the very same sins with no self-awareness of the hypocrisy. Although, I wonder how much of that is due to McConnell and the GOP's loose morals, vs. the GOP itself being nigh unrecognizable from what it once was. The party of Reagan, Bush, and Romney is no more; the latter of which I was just reading, described in the press as a "pariah within his own party."

Re:Police raid mosque in Moscow, forcibly take worshippers t... by kadoban on Monday October 23, 2023 @01:54AM (#37982065)
The US government barely survived an incompetent carnival barker, let's not give the founders too much credit.

The system they set up has far too much ambiguity and survives only as long as honorable people are in the correct places at the correct times and _just_ barely enough were, this time, to prevent it all from completely crashing down.

> [...] ultimately he was forced to step down, and though justice is slow, he is finally seeing justice for his many crimes.

I mean I'll take it, but he's only being prosecuted for a small fraction of the shit he did, even if we ignore his whole life before the presidency. Our justice system has been openly corrupted by the rich and the powerful.

Re:Police raid mosque in Moscow, forcibly take worshippers t... by 3seashells on Monday October 23, 2023 @01:34AM (#37981958)
No. The people are armed and believe in democracy. Facist would have to do what they suck the most at.. Fighting.
Re:Police raid mosque in Moscow, forcibly take worshippers t... by pjmlp on Monday October 23, 2023 @02:19AM (#37982191)
Which would be a civil war, if the democracy would uphold depends pretty much of its outcome.

Imagine how US would have looked like if South had won the previous civil war.

Re:Police raid mosque in Moscow, forcibly take worshippers t... by 3seashells on Monday October 23, 2023 @02:29AM (#37982231)
The facists always loose, they are cruel but also to emotional If the raid fails, the default for the tribe is always in fighting?
Re:Police raid mosque in Moscow, forcibly take worshippers t... by pjmlp on Monday October 23, 2023 @03:32AM (#37982563)
After how many years, though? Last time in Portugal it took from 1926 to 1974.
Re:Police raid mosque in Moscow, forcibly take worshippers t... by enasterosophes on Monday October 23, 2023 @12:18AM (#37981568)
Well, there is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human..., which is to say, it's complicated. Notice USSR did not vote against the proposed universal declaration, implying they were willing to go along with whatever everyone else decided.

So, the person quoted in the article has at least some grounds for arguing about human rights, although you might consider the grounds fairly weak. I furthermore claim that the only compassionate response is to agree even if the person isn't on the strongest ground in a formal legal sense where someone might actually be able to do something about it.

Re:Police raid mosque in Moscow, forcibly take worshippers t... by readthenotes1 on Monday October 23, 2023 @12:20AM (#37981575)
That's actually only sorta true.

A genius of the US Constitution is that it states unequivocally that citizens grant rights to their government, not the other way around.

Re:Police raid mosque in Moscow, forcibly take worshippers t... by darthrupert on Monday October 23, 2023 @12:41AM (#37981710)
You just recently had an event that almost overthrew the executive branch. The US Constitution is literally paper thin and the only thing actually protecting it are the institutions and people behind them.
Re:Police raid mosque in Moscow, forcibly take worshippers t... by anon373839 on Monday October 23, 2023 @01:03AM (#37981817)
Agree about the “paper-thin” part, because laws only mean something if they are supported by institutions and people. But I don’t think we can say the executive branch was “almost” overthrown. That’s hyperbole.
Re:Police raid mosque in Moscow, forcibly take worshippers t... by jemmyw on Monday October 23, 2023 @01:08AM (#37981845)
I'm not sure that the events of 2021 were seriously endangering the executive branch or any part of the US government. Yes a riot put lawmakers in physical danger, but if the rioters had actually taken over that building that wouldn't make them the lawmakers. It'd probably make them dead. More concerning was the electors thing, but I reckon the most likely outcome would have been a lawsuit and the tightening of the laws around electors.
Re:Police raid mosque in Moscow, forcibly take worshippers t... by darthrupert on Monday October 23, 2023 @03:02AM (#37982387)
If Mike Pence had chosen to go with Trump's delusions, it could've gone very differently.
Re:Police raid mosque in Moscow, forcibly take worshippers t... by userinanother on Monday October 23, 2023 @12:30AM (#37981647)
Rights are great but who is going to enforce them? If your local sheriff doesn’t believe in said rights good luck suing your way to get them… By the time you get to the appropriate courts it will be years and millions of dollars in legal fees
Re:Police raid mosque in Moscow, forcibly take worshippers t... by ivanb on Monday October 23, 2023 @01:19AM (#37981906)
And that's assuming independent judicial system. Such a precious thing should not be taken for granted.
Re:Police raid mosque in Moscow, forcibly take worshippers t... by KingMob on Monday October 23, 2023 @12:22AM (#37981595)
Which is great de jure, if de facto, unfortunately.
Re:Police raid mosque in Moscow, forcibly take worshippers t... by darthrupert on Monday October 23, 2023 @12:39AM (#37981704)
US Constitution etc were certainly revolutionary when they were written, but many countries have adapted similar or improved policies when it comes to basic human rights.
Re:Police raid mosque in Moscow, forcibly take worshippers t... by gizmo686 on Monday October 23, 2023 @12:48AM (#37981749)
The US also has forced conscription. It hasn't been used since the 70s, but the legal/constitutional ability of the government to do so is pretty much undisputed (although there is some surprisingly recent controversy about the male only aspect).

The rights being discussed in the article sounds like rights nominal protected by Russian law. So really the question is 'do rights the government grant you count, if that government ignores them?'. In a properly functioning liberal democracy, the answer is 'yes, because there is a co-equal branch of the government (the judiciary) that will not ignore them'. In a country where all aperatasus of the government agree not to respect those rights, then all you have is paper.

Re:Police raid mosque in Moscow, forcibly take worshippers t... by LinuxBender on Monday October 23, 2023 @09:49AM (#37985593)
although there is some surprisingly recent controversy about the male only aspect

It's back on the table for discussion [1] but it would probably take a serious event to push this in one direction or the other I think. Probably nudging it in the requirement direction is the lack of physically qualified candidates. I have no idea what direction this will ultimately go.

I have proudly served along side women in the US military and witnessed them performing all the duties expected of them not in combat. How random male and female conscripts would be allocated in warfare by the US remains to be seen and I do not know to what extent they have tested this idea. I have sparred with female fighters outside of the military and would be afraid to meet them in battle but these were not random conscripts and in my humble opinion are not very common.

[1] - https://www.military.com/daily-news/2022/06/27/requirement-w...

Re:Police raid mosque in Moscow, forcibly take worshippers t... by gizmo686 on Monday October 23, 2023 @11:13AM (#37986815)
In 2021, the Supreme Court declined to hear a case challenging the constitutionality of it, in part because the court found that Congress was activly looking into it. According to the court, in 2020 a congressional commission tasked with looking into it advised eliminating the male only selective service.

Congress almost did so, to the point where both houses of Congress approved a draft bill that would; however the provision was dropped before a final version was agreed to.

For a country that has not had a draft in half a century, that is a suprising level of controversy.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/20pdf/20-928_new_i4ek....

Re:Police raid mosque in Moscow, forcibly take worshippers t... by RichEO on Monday October 23, 2023 @12:49AM (#37981751)
> As far as I know the US is the only country with enumerated rights for citizens.

I appreciate that you prefaced this with a disclaimer about your ignorance, but it has a weird tone of American exceptionalism to it, and it’s not even close to true. There are quite a lot of countries with “bills of rights”. There’s even a Wikipedia article that attempts to enumerate them.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_rights

Re:Police raid mosque in Moscow, forcibly take worshippers t... by eesmith on Monday October 23, 2023 @03:59AM (#37982737)
Neat! Some of the enumerated rights in the Finnish constitution from https://finlex.fi/en/laki/kaannokset/1999/en19990731.pdf :

> Everyone has the right to life, personal liberty, integrity and security.

> No one shall be sentenced to death, tortured or otherwise treated in a manner violating human dignity.

> Everyone's private life, honour and the sanctity of the home are guaranteed.

> The secrecy of correspondence, telephony and other confidential communications is inviolable.

> Everyone has the freedom of religion and conscience.

> Everyone has the freedom of expression.

> Everyone has the right to arrange meetings and demonstrations without a permit, as well as the right to participate in them.

> Everyone has the freedom of association.

> Those who cannot obtain the means necessary for a life of dignity have the right to receive indispensable subsistence and care.

Re:Police raid mosque in Moscow, forcibly take worshippers t... by pasabagi on Monday October 23, 2023 @04:21AM (#37982892)
Was the US the first nation with a Bill of Rights, though? (I'm aware there are many medieval documents that could be construed as such, but I'm talking about universal rights in the modern sense).
Re:Police raid mosque in Moscow, forcibly take worshippers t... by pliftkl on Monday October 23, 2023 @06:07AM (#37983623)
If you're really talking about universal rights in the modern sense, that really didn't happen in the US until the 1960's in practice (unless you were white and had the correct chromosomes). Women couldn't vote until the early 20th century, and you could not marry interracially in some states until the 1960's.
Re:Police raid mosque in Moscow, forcibly take worshippers t... by brutusborn on Monday October 23, 2023 @05:23AM (#37983342)
Thanks for the correction! I really should have done a quick google search.

From my point of view America is exceptional because their rights are often part of political discourse in a way that I don’t see at home or in my limited exposure to other domestic politics.

Re:Police raid mosque in Moscow, forcibly take worshippers t... by lIl-IIIl on Monday October 23, 2023 @01:01PM (#37988428)
I don't think that's even remotely true.

Think about "liberté, égalité, fraternité".

Every political party in every country invokes civic rights in their discourse because it makes for a great rhetoric.

In more autocratic countries human rights might be a much bigger part of political discourse because there are more violations.

Re:Police raid mosque in Moscow, forcibly take worshippers t... by jltsiren on Monday October 23, 2023 @12:49AM (#37981752)
Do people then have any rights in the US? Because conscription is one of the powers the Constitution explicitly grants to the Congress.

The historical background is that serving in the military is what able-bodied male citizens do in a republic. Conscription is not supposed to be something that the government does but what the citizens do by the virtue of being citizens. If there is no conscription, you don't have a republic in the traditional sense, because warfare is no longer a public matter.

Re:Police raid mosque in Moscow, forcibly take worshippers t... by __rito__ on Monday October 23, 2023 @12:55AM (#37981778)
India also has something called "Fundamental Rights" that are enumerated and clearly laid out. But they can be suspended during statutory emergencies.
Re:Police raid mosque in Moscow, forcibly take worshippers t... by tguvot on Monday October 23, 2023 @01:21AM (#37981911)
>I always find it interesting when people talk about their rights in these contexts. If the government can legally conscript you, surely you don’t have any rights?

there are rules in russia about how conscription/etc works. medically fit, mentally stable, etc. ever since they started mobilization they just rubber stamp paperwork that says that they are fit without any medical examination

just an example

Re:Police raid mosque in Moscow, forcibly take worshippers t... by 3seashells on Monday October 23, 2023 @01:31AM (#37981948)
Legality mimicry. And it only works cause the average Russian expects it's the same cynic affair in the west.
Re:Police raid mosque in Moscow, forcibly take worshippers t... by tguvot on Monday October 23, 2023 @01:37AM (#37981974)
nea. it works because they are been told that if you don't sign documents you go from here to prison. and from prison to army but without salary.
Re:Police raid mosque in Moscow, forcibly take worshippers t... by klyrs on Monday October 23, 2023 @01:40AM (#37981991)
Men (citizens and immigrants) aged 18-25 are required to register with the Selective Service. Should the US declare war, conscription could start again. The Constitution doesn't forbid it -- to the contrary, it outlines the process to declare martial law and suspend its ordinary protections.

https://www.sss.gov/

Re:Police raid mosque in Moscow, forcibly take worshippers t... by graemep on Monday October 23, 2023 @04:38AM (#37983037)
I think most constitutions have an equivalent. What is unusual about the US is the extent to which there is judge made legislation through re-interpretation and extension of those rights. THis is not just true in the west. Here is the Sri Lankan constitution: https://www.parliament.lk/files/pdf/constitution.pdf - take a look at Chapter III. It is common for cases to be brought under these provisions.

There are international treaties that are incorporated law - e.g. the European Convention on Human Rights. How effective they are varies with national governments (Russia and Turkey are both ECHR, for example). The big variable is whether a country has an independent judiciary that will enforce those rights.

There are definite rights listed in very old laws such as the Magna Carta - and I have read that much of what it granted was already accepted in common law.