fair enough. I've only done vegetarianism and veganism for (selfish) health reasons. I can't seem to get things to grow in the ground here, probably because of all the pine stands and i can't get the ratio of lye correct to promote stuff like corn or oats to grow. Luckily trees grow fine... the rabbits, squirrels, and birds thank me every year when they get to the fruit before i can. It's also rural here, so being vegan is incredibly difficult (read: boring). I could, technically, survive on oatmeal, french/italian bread, potatos, and ketchup. But i don't have the moral fortitude to make the leap. maybe in the future.

Thanks for responding and I hope my question was worded inoffensively. I hate to sound like i am JAQ-ing off.

Where do you get your food? The market doesn't have vegetables, legumes, grains, nuts, etc.?

"the market" that sells those things is over an hour round trip, so i only go every three weeks or so. There is a distinct (but unchecked) possibility that the solitary butcher shop is closer than a supermarket to my house.

I just realized i have this style conversation every time i bring up anything about food when talking with people specifically in the US, for 15 of the last 20 years of my life. The comment i originally typed mentioned a 50 mile radius around my house is either forest or farmland, with 1 metro area. AFAIK there's no farmer's market; also the most common crops are field corn (not human edible as i understand it) and cotton, then soybeans.

It is very difficult to enjoy eating if there's any dietary restrictions, self-imposed or otherwise, due to living it what i suppose most people would call a food desert. Atkins, vegetarianism, veganism, etc.

I can buy hamburger patties, chicken, bacon, cheese about 15 minutes from my house, though - and an extremely limited selection of seasonal produce, grapes, avocado, banana, apples, iceberg lettuce, sometimes cucumbers and celery and carrots. Everything else would be canned, and i'm on an eternally medically necessary low-sodium diet, so i don't eat much canned vegetables.

Food here is such a pain in the ass that sometimes i buy my friends fresh produce when i go to town so they have something to eat that isn't fried.

> field corn (not human edible as i understand it)

Heh, fermentation may open up some options there. :D

I realize my questions might have seemed argumentative. I was really curious. Thanks for explaining it (again!).

We all live on the same planet, in different worlds.

Have you tried Landrace gardening? Maybe you just need to adapt the seeds to your local conditions.

Only STUN - Sheer Total Utter Neglect (Mark Shepard); although i will try to ask the agricultural department at the local state university if they know of any. There is an experimental USDA forest about 20 minutes from my house (which contains a redwood which grew from a seed that went to space!), so someone out here is as interested as i am in growing things in this forest without pesticide application.

Try raised beds and purchase soil for them at a garden store. Then you control the mix.

On the other hand, cattle and poultry are the most successful organisms on this planet exactly because of farming. The selective pressure for tasty meat is no different than flowers developing rich smells and trees developing edible fruits.

There is a lot to be said against the inhuman assembly-line-like production of meat that has developed over the last century. But in my view, I shouldn't have to defend myself for being born an omnivore.

Did someone say you have to defend yourself? You just inserted yourself in the conversation and, following the usual reactionary rhetoric, made yourself a victim.

I don’t understand (some) people’s negative visceral reaction to vegan / plant diets.

My best guess is it’s the very small but very vocal minority who actively criticize meat eating.

The majority of vegans and vegetarians don’t really care whether other people eat meat. It’s a diet, not an ethical philosophy for a lot of people.

You seriously don't see the pattern? Sorry to make you my outlet for this rant: It's the same reactionary (as in, anti-'liberal') response to everything; it's the same pattern, rhetoric, tone, etc etc. It's completely predictable; it's been going on for years. When will people stop playing this helpless role, to play it safe, to avoid confronting the obvious, overwhelming problem?

They don't give a crap about veganism; they just are following the reactionary playbook.

You don’t have to defend yourself for being born an omnivore. You just have to defend the ethical choices you make and the consequences of those choices.

Here's my ethical defense of eating meat.

Everyone and every thing dies, and in the larger scheme of things it matters not one bit. I'll make peace agreements with others where I see a benefit, and if I can trust that the other sees enough benefit to hold up his end of the bargain. Other than that, I see no reason to not participate fully in the full range of barbaric behavior the universe allows. Don't blame the player, blame the game. There is no referee who watches over to pass judgement either way.

“I will do barbaric things so long as there are no adverse consequences to me personally” is not really an ethical defence of eating meat.

Yes it is. It's just not ethics you agree with. But that's the great thing with ethics, everyone gets to pick their own. There's no right or wrong, just opinions.