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Re:Decline in Independent Activity as a Cause of Decline in... by btilly on Sunday October 15, 2023 @02:08AM (#37887328)
This is something that free range parenting advocates have been talking about for a long time. See https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2018/09/03/6412565....

For me one of the most compelling data points wasn't even a parenting reference. It was https://www.amazon.com/Millionaire-Next-Door-Surprising-Amer.... First published in the mid-1990s, the chapters on the children of millionaires found that the more support millionaires gave to their children, the worse that those children turned out. Armed with that theory, I've always doubted the wisdom of extreme helicopter parenting that has become popular since.

Re:Decline in Independent Activity as a Cause of Decline in... by scaramanga on Sunday October 15, 2023 @02:28AM (#37887424)
I'd love to read the papers cited there without having to buy that book.

I wonder if what is defined as "support" is actually, meddling, undermining, and pressurzing children into fulfilling the parents needs.

Re:Decline in Independent Activity as a Cause of Decline in... by sarkhan on Sunday October 15, 2023 @02:49AM (#37887507)
Well, it comes a lot of from the good stuff that involved parenting does.

In other words, even taking kids to school in a car instead them walking (or at least on the bike, but their own feet still involved, therefore they are themselves 100% in control in going to school) is the support that is not the in the list of "support" but will be in the long run. I should mention, I do recognize the time constraints of current society.

Re:Decline in Independent Activity as a Cause of Decline in... by btilly on Sunday October 15, 2023 @02:55AM (#37887532)
The book wasn't a compilation of independent research papers. It was produced out of a compilation of interviews done to better understand millionaires.

Support was defined by the wealthy parent providing financial support, whether through a stipend, gifts, or whatever. It turned out that, despite the best of intentions, such support almost inevitably wound up with destructive emotional dynamics.

Re:Decline in Independent Activity as a Cause of Decline in... by KptMarchewa on Sunday October 15, 2023 @03:42AM (#37887776)
"Financial" was the key missing word.
Re:Decline in Independent Activity as a Cause of Decline in... by londons_explore on Sunday October 15, 2023 @04:22AM (#37887971)
But presumably it is also possible that some children were smart and successful, so therefore the parents didn't feel the need to provide so much support.

Whereas others were perhaps struggling with everything so the parents gave much more support.

Everyday example: the parents of disabled people dedicate almost everything they've got to help their children, and often end up poor and with a poor quality of life themselves as a result.

Re:Decline in Independent Activity as a Cause of Decline in... by blitzar on Sunday October 15, 2023 @04:52AM (#37888122)
> It turned out that, despite the best of intentions, such support almost inevitably wound up with destructive emotional dynamics

See the list of "self made" billionaires who started with a small loan of a couple 100 mil from their parents for examples.

Re:Decline in Independent Activity as a Cause of Decline in... by Aeolun on Sunday October 15, 2023 @08:05AM (#37889059)
A few people turning out well does not negate all the ones that failed. The US has a ton of millionaires, but only a few successes.
Re:Decline in Independent Activity as a Cause of Decline in... by pfannkuchen on Sunday October 15, 2023 @11:14AM (#37890420)
What’s an example? I thought the family safety net was a bigger factor in children from wealthy families starting riskier ventures earlier in life and perhaps serially. I’ve never heard of a company starting like you describe so I assume it isn’t that common, but maybe people just don’t talk about it much? Or maybe you are just exaggerating the loan magnitude by quite a lot?
Re:Decline in Independent Activity as a Cause of Decline in... by WalterBright on Sunday October 15, 2023 @02:56AM (#37887537)
> without having to buy that book

You can get the book for $2.74:

https://www.amazon.com/Millionaire-Next-Door-Surprising-Amer...

Unless there is some other reason you don't want to buy it?

Re:Decline in Independent Activity as a Cause of Decline in... by basch on Sunday October 15, 2023 @01:52PM (#37891825)
Check the local library or their ebook app.
Re:Decline in Independent Activity as a Cause of Decline in... by okwhateverdude on Sunday October 15, 2023 @04:44AM (#37888092)
Re:Decline in Independent Activity as a Cause of Decline in... by swalling on Sunday October 15, 2023 @03:45AM (#37887790)
One important thing that the NPR story completely glosses over is the component of race and class that permeates this issue. It’s not an accident that the prototypical mom of the “free range kid” movement is white and lives in a relatively wealthy neighborhood like the one mentioned in the story.

Poor black and brown women are disproportionately targeted by child welfare authorities starting literally from birth. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7372952/ This makes it particularly important that we actually change the laws around what constitutes neglect or endangerment, not just create a culture shift.

Re:Decline in Independent Activity as a Cause of Decline in... by peanutcrisis on Sunday October 15, 2023 @08:25AM (#37889183)
Sociology departments in America are captured by the current moral fashion (identity politics). If it were me, I'd think twice before believing the research that you linked to.
Re:Decline in Independent Activity as a Cause of Decline in... by cyanydeez on Sunday October 15, 2023 @01:39PM (#37891722)
Hard not to when antisocial policies are intentionally used to disadvantage minorities after the 60s.

We might agree they're focused on a symptom, not a disease, but conservative policy objectives are definitely causing disparities that now even poor white people are finally feeling.

Conservatives shut down public pools in reaction to integration and then proceeded to shut down socialism.

Re:Decline in Independent Activity as a Cause of Decline in... by swalling on Monday October 16, 2023 @12:06AM (#37895828)
If it is moral fashion to acknowledge and measure the obvious racial and economic discrimination in America then that’s a fashion which is morally good.
Re:Decline in Independent Activity as a Cause of Decline in... by peanutcrisis on Monday October 16, 2023 @07:49AM (#37898432)
That is assuming that the moral fashion is actually doing that. Unfortunately, the moral fashion is more about starting with a predefined set of conclusions, then working backwards to justify those conclusions. I don't think we need to sell out our integrity to achieve a better society, or make false equivalence between liberal social justice and critical social justice, of which the latter is the current moral fashion.
Re:Decline in Independent Activity as a Cause of Decline in... by 93po on Monday October 16, 2023 @10:40AM (#37900479)
It is actively harmful if they're measuring the wrong things and in the wrong way to come to an exact predefined conclusion instead of the one that is actually maximally good for children.
Re:Decline in Independent Activity as a Cause of Decline in... by Eumenes on Sunday October 15, 2023 @09:26AM (#37889528)
This happens everywhere, it doesn't have to do with race. I have a family member who has children in very posh and upscale neighborhood in a suburban area of NoVa. She has had neighbors call child welfare several times for her 10 year old skateboarding around town, or playing at a playground unattended with friends (literally a block away from their home). I get the vibe that alot of older residents don't want children running around because they value peace and quiet, so they call the cops/DCF when they see kids hanging w/o adults.
Re:Decline in Independent Activity as a Cause of Decline in... by michael1999 on Sunday October 15, 2023 @10:21AM (#37889960)
There’s no conflict here. Laws don’t usually change until after the culture shift. They often lag the culture by years or decades.
Re:Decline in Independent Activity as a Cause of Decline in... by swalling on Monday October 16, 2023 @12:03AM (#37895808)
All too frequently laws in the US are completely out of step with the culture. For instance despite broad support for many reforms (abortion rights, term limits in Congress, marijuana legalization) nothing happens just because the culture has evolved.
Re:Decline in Independent Activity as a Cause of Decline in... by cyanydeez on Sunday October 15, 2023 @01:37PM (#37891708)
In a real socialist society, neglect would need to be explicitly determined by parents.
Re:Decline in Independent Activity as a Cause of Decline in... by yieldcrv on Sunday October 15, 2023 @04:05AM (#37887885)
Epigenetics suggests that unnecessary stressors in the current generation reduce biological fitness, which competes with struggle for the sake of struggle when its not necessary

hope someone finds the happy medium of allowing growth without unnecessary stress

Re:Decline in Independent Activity as a Cause of Decline in... by RandomLensman on Sunday October 15, 2023 @05:13AM (#37888225)
As opposed to necessary stressors in previous generations (hot and cold wars)? If not all stressors are bad, which ones are good?
Re:Decline in Independent Activity as a Cause of Decline in... by pfannkuchen on Sunday October 15, 2023 @11:19AM (#37890466)
The wars of the 20th century were pretty extreme outliers in terms of how many people in the societies were significantly affected by the wars. I believe that for most of human history post tribal era, most of the population wouldn’t have been nearly as affected by wars. You might have to pay taxes to someone else after it’s over.
Re:Decline in Independent Activity as a Cause of Decline in... by RandomLensman on Sunday October 15, 2023 @11:31AM (#37890564)
Some centuries in Central Europe were full of war, wiping out 30% of the population in some countries (30yr war, for example). So there were definitely large populations affected by war previously.
Re:Decline in Independent Activity as a Cause of Decline in... by btilly on Sunday October 15, 2023 @03:01PM (#37892413)
On what evidence do you believe that?

What I've read of history shows it to have been full of wars with things like genocide and mass rape. We didn't even have a name for genocide until after WW 2 - it was just a standard thing that happened regularly.

And pillaging was just taken for granted as a standard solution to the problem of supplying an army in the field. It was much easier to take whatever the local peasants had and then move on than to have a good supply chain. The fact that the peasants often starved as a result was just one of the costs of war. Better them than us, and we have the weapons.

Re:Decline in Independent Activity as a Cause of Decline in... by klyrs on Sunday October 15, 2023 @11:15AM (#37890425)
Helicopter parenting was never born of wisdom. It's driven by anxiety.
Re:Decline in Independent Activity as a Cause of Decline in... by kkielhofner on Sunday October 15, 2023 @02:11PM (#37891958)
I’m not a parent so I don’t know what I’m talking about.

However, I have a lot of friends with children and some of their takes are completely irrational to me.

“Let the kids WALK three blocks to school? Not anymore, things aren’t like what we grew up with. It’s scary out there!”

Exactly. Violent crime, etc has been on a general and significant downward trend since we were kids (80s and 90s). It’s not what we grew up with - it’s significantly safer. The media drives a tremendous amount of anxiety and it’s extremely detrimental to parents, kids, and society overall.

It used to be “sex sells” (still does) but more and more it’s “fear sells”.

Re:Decline in Independent Activity as a Cause of Decline in... by klyrs on Sunday October 15, 2023 @05:25PM (#37893521)
"Let the kids WALK three blocks to school? Not anymore, things aren’t like what we grew up with."

One truth in this regard: people will straight up call the cops, or worse, CPS, on unattended children. In their perception that things are scary, people manifest their fear and become villains with "good intentions."

And, to the hilarious dead response to my first comment, I'm just gonna repeat this back to you: "You're one of billions of ultimately meaningless voices."

Re:Decline in Independent Activity as a Cause of Decline in... by qball on Sunday October 15, 2023 @07:18PM (#37894305)
>One truth in this regard: people will straight up call the cops, or worse, CPS, on unattended children

And there will never be any meaningful consequences leveled against those people, empowering bad actors far beyond any meaningful social sanction they could ever have generated by themselves.

Making sure concern trolls and the hysterical can't fuck up a working community is something poorer societies (SE Asia, Continental Europe) inherently do better than richer ones (UK, US), mainly because the former simply can't afford to indulge it.