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Re:Hands-on: GNOME 3.4 arrives, introducing significant desi... by onosendai on Sunday April 01, 2012 @04:06PM (#3784715)
I've been forcing myself to use GNOME-shell for the past few months, just to see if it was as bad as most people make it out to be, and I have to grudgingly admit that some of the design choices are elegant.

For example, I find myself liking the activities overview more and more since it combines together functionalities that you'd have to access separately on other desktop environments, namely a keyboard based application launcher, windows scale (or exposé for the Mac crowd) and virtual desktop manager. It's problematic that each environment maxes out at 8-9 windows before it becomes unmanageable, but the philosophy seems to be new desktops on demand, which are quick to create (just drag a window to the blank desktop or middle click an application to launch it in a clean desktop)

And the new Alt+Tab behavior does have a silver lining in that it scales much better for large number of windows since it allows you to drill down much quicker to the window you're looking for: Alt+Tab until you reach the application, Alt+<above tab> to reach the specific window you want. Or Alt+Tab, then use the mouse to highlight the application and then the specific window.

Another little know functionality is that the shell comes with a screen recorder: Ctrl+Shift+Alt+R to start recording, again to stop, the video is saved as WebM on the root of your home dir.

It's far from perfect, some functions take way too many motions to execute, and I wish they allowed you to bind mouse shortcuts (it would be perfect to enter the overview), but the basis for what could become a pretty decent desktop environment are there.

Re:Hands-on: GNOME 3.4 arrives, introducing significant desi... by mattbriggs on Sunday April 01, 2012 @08:17PM (#3785580)
I find there are a few killer extensions like https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/10/windownavigator/ and https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/60/overlay-icons/. The first one means you aren't forced to grab the mouse in overlay mode (which was my biggest complaint), the second means you have a chance in hell of recognizing what something is when you have more then around 4 windows open.

I like it too, but the big things for me (after stability issues) are

1) the notification area feels not well done. I am constantly triggering it when I don't want to, and I find it is a pain to trigger when I do want it.

2) the search function in overlay mode is really choppy, which is funny because I would consider this a solved problem in gnome (with gnome-do)

I think its a definite improvement over gnome 2, but it probably needs another 2-3 years of dev time before things are as polished as what you would expect nowadays.

Re:Hands-on: GNOME 3.4 arrives, introducing significant desi... by sandGorgon on Monday April 02, 2012 @01:18AM (#3786437)
http://extensions.gnome.org is really the killer feature of Gnome-shell. Its really unfortunate that it is not publicised more.

I mean seamless installation and control of desktop extensions from the browser? awesome!

Re:Hands-on: GNOME 3.4 arrives, introducing significant desi... by downx3 on Monday April 02, 2012 @03:02AM (#3786671)
The site is totally borked for me. Do I have to run it within Gnome 3?
Re:Hands-on: GNOME 3.4 arrives, introducing significant desi... by bkor on Monday April 02, 2012 @08:14AM (#3787658)
1) it is less easy to trigger in 3.4. Agree it is still a bit weird to use.

2) reading of .desktop files is not well done. It has been like that for many years, just wasn't that noticeable in 2.x.

Re:Hands-on: GNOME 3.4 arrives, introducing significant desi... by avar on Sunday April 01, 2012 @07:00PM (#3785338)
I completely agree, it's much better than GNOME 2.x. Another major thing that's changed in my workflow is that I never use the menus to find programs anymore, it's now much faster to use the built-in search engine to launch applications. E.g. launching a terminal is Windows key + typing "Ter" + pressing Enter.
Re:Hands-on: GNOME 3.4 arrives, introducing significant desi... by downx3 on Monday April 02, 2012 @02:57AM (#3786656)
I've always used alt+F2 to launch apps that I already know are installed on my system. I find menus are great for browsing/scanning applications that I don't know. And they are quick to use.

Whereas the app menus in Gnome 3, are really hard on my head. The icons, just don't really add anything for me, it feels cluttered.

Re:Hands-on: GNOME 3.4 arrives, introducing significant desi... by Andrex on Sunday April 01, 2012 @08:05PM (#3785549)
Another agree here, I really feel like its elastic workspaces and brain-dead simple "expose" are killer features that should be in every desktop environment. It's a shame so many people lump Unity and Gnome 3 together.
Re:Hands-on: GNOME 3.4 arrives, introducing significant desi... by mattbriggs on Sunday April 01, 2012 @08:18PM (#3785584)
i hate unity with a burning passion, but gnome 3 is my favorite environment in linux right now :)
Re:Hands-on: GNOME 3.4 arrives, introducing significant desi... by GuiA on Sunday April 01, 2012 @04:10PM (#3784725)
Browse the gnome-usability mailing list archives— you will see that there are barely more than a dozen threads each month, none of them really touching major usability issues that would come with significant design changes.

http://mail.gnome.org/archives/usability/

I used to be involved with Gnome a long time ago (pre 2.14), and have lost touch since— so maybe the accessibility mailing list is now outdated and I'm looking in the wrong place — but I feel like there's a huge disconnect between the various teams, and that design decisions are taken by isolated groups of developers, with little regard for system coherency or good, consistent usability.

Linux-world developers are good at many, many things— but in my humble opinion, good usability and design are not amongst them.

Re:Hands-on: GNOME 3.4 arrives, introducing significant desi... by bkor on Monday April 02, 2012 @08:12AM (#3787644)
Usability-list is not used for design. #gnome-design is.
Re:Hands-on: GNOME 3.4 arrives, introducing significant desi... by divtxt on Sunday April 01, 2012 @03:23PM (#3784620)
> Having the application's functionality split across two completely separate menus does not constitute a usability improvement.

That's putting it mildly. A split menu may be correct from some design point of view (e.g DRY principle) but from a usability point of view, it's recipe for frustration.

On a more general note, does no one else consider Mac-style "alt-tab switches apps" and "global menu" usability mistakes? (on grounds of being modal)

With both Unity and Gnome adopting these, I no longer have a compelling reason to switch from Mac back to Linux.

Which is a pity really, because Gnome 3 is one of the prettiest and most usable desktops I've seen: I love how the windows key gives you access to the dock, all windows, workspaces and search at the same time.

Re:Hands-on: GNOME 3.4 arrives, introducing significant desi... by dfc on Sunday April 01, 2012 @03:45PM (#3784677)
"I no longer have a compelling reason to switch from Mac back to Linux."

Even if you assume that the only thing Linux has to offer is graphical windowing environments; there are a lot of other enviornments besides gnome/unity...

Xfce, awesome, kde, xmonad, lxde, fvwm95(joke), etc....

Re:Hands-on: GNOME 3.4 arrives, introducing significant desi... by whateverer on Sunday April 01, 2012 @05:58PM (#3785104)
I know that the grievance is on the design decision, which is a point of a trend which the dev team will follow, but as for the window switching, there are several extensions you can install for that; just flip the switch on the webpage and it'll get installed and activated immediately:

https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/38/windows-alt-tab/

https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/97/coverflow-alt-tab/

Re:Hands-on: GNOME 3.4 arrives, introducing significant desi... by dchest on Sunday April 01, 2012 @06:16PM (#3785162)
Or use Alt-Escape.
Re:Hands-on: GNOME 3.4 arrives, introducing significant desi... by duaneb on Sunday April 01, 2012 @04:41PM (#3784817)
> On a more general note, does no one else consider Mac-style "alt-tab switches apps" and "global menu" usability mistakes? (on grounds of being modal)

Au contraire, I now consider gnome usable for the first time. The fact that apps didn't really exist but as a collection of individual windows drove me crazy.

Re:Hands-on: GNOME 3.4 arrives, introducing significant desi... by divtxt on Sunday April 01, 2012 @05:32PM (#3785001)
The window is the unit of focus (not apps), so I can rightly argue that switching focus should work on the unit of focus i.e. windows.

Note that I'm not arguing against having an app concept or a "switch app" action. The problem is killing the "switch window" action.

Re:Hands-on: GNOME 3.4 arrives, introducing significant desi... by natesm on Sunday April 01, 2012 @05:42PM (#3785042)
Mac OS X is Cmd+Tab to switch apps and Cmd+` to switch windows.
Re:Hands-on: GNOME 3.4 arrives, introducing significant desi... by divtxt on Sunday April 01, 2012 @05:48PM (#3785073)
Cmd-` only switches windows of the current app. So, even if you see your window, you can't switch to it with Cmd-`.
Re:Hands-on: GNOME 3.4 arrives, introducing significant desi... by mattbriggs on Sunday April 01, 2012 @08:19PM (#3785591)
gnome 3 works that way now too, it is one of my favorite changes :) (even though it gets the most hate)
Re:Hands-on: GNOME 3.4 arrives, introducing significant desi... by virtualeyes on Monday April 02, 2012 @04:42AM (#3786989)
I do miss cmd-`, toggle through currently focused app windows from Mac, one of the few features that I did not get in my switch to Fedora 3 years ago.

Of course, so much more was gained, the point of no return has long been reached ;-) Now the question, to Gnome 3 or not to Gnome 3?

Am I going to freak out as a gnome-do + compiz + dual monitor (laptop + external) user, or, with time, one adjusts, and, like an arranged marriage, learns to love the other?

Re:Hands-on: GNOME 3.4 arrives, introducing significant desi... by mattbriggs on Monday April 02, 2012 @08:56AM (#3787819)
You may want to wait a bit if you are happy with gnome 2, since there are still stability and perf issues (at least in 3.1) the really bog difference is that window switching has mostly become a modal thing, which honestly isn't as bad as you would think once you get used to it
Re:Hands-on: GNOME 3.4 arrives, introducing significant desi... by batista on Sunday April 01, 2012 @04:44PM (#3784830)
On a more general note, does no one else consider Mac-style "alt-tab switches apps" and "global menu" usability mistakes? (on grounds of being modal)

No, modal can be good.

Re:Hands-on: GNOME 3.4 arrives, introducing significant desi... by kijin on Sunday April 01, 2012 @04:55PM (#3784859)
No title bars when maximized, and menus in the top panel? They should seriously consider merging back with Unity.

> Windows are maximized by default

Thanks again for catering to tablet users at the cost of the rest of us! How many times do we need to remind these people that there is no such thing as a one-size-fits-all user interface?

Re:Hands-on: GNOME 3.4 arrives, introducing significant desi... by bkor on Monday April 02, 2012 @08:33AM (#3787723)
You assume that things are just one way. Suggest to try out GNOME 3.4.
Re:Hands-on: GNOME 3.4 arrives, introducing significant desi... by mindstab on Monday April 02, 2012 @01:25AM (#3786455)
Applications now start maximized? Why the continual push for small screen sized low input phone paradigms for big screen rich input desktop interfaces? It doesn't make sense and it's incredibly limiting. We're trading rich desktops for phone interfaces? Why?
Re:Hands-on: GNOME 3.4 arrives, introducing significant desi... by bkor on Monday April 02, 2012 @08:10AM (#3787635)
If that is your conclusion, it is incorrect. Some applications start maximized by default. Only some, and they'll remember their size. Meaning: if you do not use them maximized, next time they won't be maximized.
Re:Hands-on: GNOME 3.4 arrives, introducing significant desi... by virtualeyes on Sunday April 01, 2012 @07:30PM (#3785437)
At some point I'm going to have to get off of Gnome 2, not looking forward to it.

Gnome 2 + Compiz + Gnome-Do completely and utterly rocks, particularly with a dual monitor setup.

KDE was a bit of a mess last I checked. Some people are saying XFCE is maybe somewhat Gnome-2-ish?

Re:Hands-on: GNOME 3.4 arrives, introducing significant desi... by archivator on Sunday April 01, 2012 @09:14PM (#3785726)
I was in the same boat as you. I looked long and hard and realized that 1) KDE has truly magnificent window management and customizability and 2) the only environment comparable to Gnome 2 in resource footprint is XFCE.

I chose KDE but your requirements may vary. The cool part about linux is Live CDs/USB drives. It's not difficult to try out new things.

Re:Hands-on: GNOME 3.4 arrives, introducing significant desi... by virtualeyes on Monday April 02, 2012 @04:57AM (#3787031)
Yeah, good point, live usb has been a life saver beyond os install and preview.

I've intentionally been sitting on the fence for over a year now. Once Fedora 14 goes EOL, going to have to make the move.

What I have now is a dream setup (gnome 2, gnome-do, compiz, emerald theme mamnager), so have been in no rush. Was hoping Gnome issues would get sorted out; i.e. they'd listen to the power users screaming bloody murder. Apparently not, or not entirely.

I'll take gnome 3 for a spin, it can't be thaaaat bad (I hope); if I'm appalled, check out XFCE, and then, if need be, KDE (KDE felt complex/clunky compared to Gnome 2 when I made the comparison a couple of years ago, maybe things have changed)

Re:Hands-on: GNOME 3.4 arrives, introducing significant desi... by billsix on Monday April 02, 2012 @12:01AM (#3786243)
Yes, you may want to try both xfce and lxde
Re:Hands-on: GNOME 3.4 arrives, introducing significant desi... by bergie on Sunday April 01, 2012 @03:39PM (#3784665)
I'm quite happy with GNOME 3 on an 11" MBA. Most things, like browsers running fullscreen, gvim and terminal side-by-side, each taking half of the screen, no need to fuss with resizing and moving windows.

This might not be optimal for large displays and desktop computers, but if with Windows 8 the future of computers looks like [1], then GNOME might have made a very smart move with the shell.

1: http://liliputing.com/2011/12/samsung-series-7-slate-pc-revi...

Re:Hands-on: GNOME 3.4 arrives, introducing significant desi... by unicornporn on Sunday April 01, 2012 @04:57PM (#3784867)
I really hate nit picking on open-source software, but... Gnome 3.X is without a doubt one of the worst pieces of UI design I have ever spotted (KDE 4 included). Almost everything looks like it was done by someone that does not have the slightest clue. It's sad, Clearlooks on Gnome 2 was quite good.
Re:Hands-on: GNOME 3.4 arrives, introducing significant desi... by bkor on Monday April 02, 2012 @08:21AM (#3787682)
Suggest to look at GNOME 1.x.
Re:Hands-on: GNOME 3.4 arrives, introducing significant desi... by hevical on Monday April 02, 2012 @03:21AM (#3786721)
Does the Gnome foundation think they'll acquire users because they're resembling the user interface of tablet? They won't they'll continue to lose users who are annoyed with trying to use a tablet interface where a desktop environment should be. I'm so sick of the horrible design innovation coming to the Linux Desktop. Fact of the matter is, the Linux Desktop is still for power users, becoming more and more different without innovation will only aggravate those power users and they'll switch to other alternatives. When KDE4 came out, many switched to Gnome 2, and now those users are switching to XFCE or looking for other nice alternatives, such as tiling window managers.
Re:Hands-on: GNOME 3.4 arrives, introducing significant desi... by bkor on Monday April 02, 2012 @08:19AM (#3787679)
Power user is just meaningless. Explain what you're doing and why. Saying "power user" and expecting that to mean something is not going to work. Design needs use-cases to consider.
Re:Hands-on: GNOME 3.4 arrives, introducing significant desi... by codesuela on Sunday April 01, 2012 @02:54PM (#3784555)
as a Gnome 3 user I dislike the move away from title bars but I am sure there will be a switch somewhere to restore them. But overall I have to say (after reading only this article) I don't really see any compelling reason to upgrade because I feel rather "meh" about the changes in 3.4
Re:Hands-on: GNOME 3.4 arrives, introducing significant desi... by JoshTriplett on Sunday April 01, 2012 @03:23PM (#3784623)
GNOME 3.4 doesn't eliminate all title bars; it just introduces the ability for applications to specifically mark themselves as not needing a title bar when maximized. Specific GNOME applications do so when they have appropriate levels of integration and UI such that the title bar really does become fully redundant.
Re:Hands-on: GNOME 3.4 arrives, introducing significant desi... by VeejayRampay on Sunday April 01, 2012 @07:33PM (#3785444)
1994 called, they'd like their directory icons back.
Re:Hands-on: GNOME 3.4 arrives, introducing significant desi... by whateverer on Sunday April 01, 2012 @11:07PM (#3786093)
Yes. For how smart the shell looks, the windows and its contents look very bleak, sterile in the best of cases. I guess they aimed for neutrality there, but I can't say I dig the paper-polypropylene look.
Re:Hands-on: GNOME 3.4 arrives, introducing significant desi... by bkor on Monday April 02, 2012 @02:25PM (#3789372)
Icons haven't been changed in a long time yeah. Terribly boring. I used an icon theme which made those icons blue. It made it at least a bit interesting.